NCRS Judging Awards

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

If an experienced "numbers judge" isn't available at an NCRS event, wouldn't it be better to just not judge the engine pad?

Why the inordinate focus on the pad ? If an owner is not satisfied with the judges evaluation, shred the results and go to another meet and try again. It could very well be that the judge at any given meet is dead wrong, for a number of reasons. Why take the results of one meet as life or death?

Same applies to just about any feature of the car, not just the pad.

[Michael H.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Why the inordinate focus on the pad ? If an owner is not satisfied with the judges evaluation, shred the results and go to another meet and try again. It could very well be that the judge at any given meet is dead wrong, for a number of reasons. Why take the results of one meet as life or death?

Same applies to just about any feature of the car, not just the pad.

Michael,

Like it or not, the engine stamp pad is a a critical point on most cars. It's not like a bad call on a seat belt or turn signal flasher. People wont whisper in their friends ear about you being caught with an incorrect flasher but if the pad stamp is called bogus, it's like a death blow to the car that may last a long time.
I know that many have been trying to shift the focus away from the stamp pad but, unfortunately, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

[Clem Z.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Why the inordinate focus on the pad ? If an owner is not satisfied with the judges evaluation, shred the results and go to another meet and try again. It could very well be that the judge at any given meet is dead wrong, for a number of reasons. Why take the results of one meet as life or death?

Same applies to just about any feature of the car, not just the pad.

some people spend $2K/$3K to go and have their car judged so just throwing that away is not always easy. if some one paid $50K/$100K to a pro builder this may not be a problem but to someone who spent years of his spare time in his 2 car garage this is a lot of $$$ to say OK i will try again.

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

some people spend $2K/$3K to go and have their car judged so just throwing that away is not always easy.

That's obvious Clem- my point is why focus on the pad alone while there's equally if not more important details of the car to be concerned with?

[Pat M.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Michael,

Like it or not, the engine stamp pad is a a critical point on most cars. It's not like a bad call on a seat belt or turn signal flasher. People wont whisper in their friends ear about you being caught with an incorrect flasher but if the pad stamp is called bogus, it's like a death blow to the car that may last a long time.
I know that many have been trying to shift the focus away from the stamp pad but, unfortunately, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

some people spend $2K/$3K to go and have their car judged so just throwing that away is not always easy. if some one paid $50K/$100K to a pro builder this may not be a problem but to someone who spent years of his spare time in his 2 car garage this is a lot of $$$ to say OK i will try again.

Yup, what they said.

[Jim D.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Yup, what they said.

Yup. Michael H. and Clem hit the nail on the head. Well said gentlemen.

[Jim L.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

If an owner is not satisfied with the judges evaluation, shred the results and go to another meet and try again. It could very well be that the judge at any given meet is dead wrong, for a number of reasons. Why take the results of one meet as life or death?

Doesn't NCRS archive these results and make them available (for a fee)? If so, then a bad call can't just be dismissed; it achieves immortality.

Jim

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Excuse my french, but I think you're all adding to the problem by giving undue credibility to individual judging results on a specific feature of a car.

We all know that judges are all volunteers with widely varying experience and knowledge, not to mention the failings induced by aging eyesight and sometimes horrible lighting conditions.

If what you are saying is widely beleived to be true and 'that's the way it is'- why on earth would people bring a car to a meet when there's a distinct possibility of an inexperienced judge inadvertently invoking the kiss of death on a pad because he's never seen one with an example of common factory screw ups?

Just go over to that 'other' discussion board to see how few people get pad judging even halfway right.

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Doesn't NCRS archive these results and make them available (for a fee)? If so, then a bad call can't just be dismissed; it achieves immortality.

Jim

No. The judging level (top, second, third) is recorded as is the date and place etc., but whether the car achieved TF with a NOM or got a Third despite an original engine is known only to the holder of the judging sheets. That's the owner- who can choose to burn them or frame them over the mantle piece depending on his perspective and satisfaction level.

That's why the OP's question has yet to be adequately answered.

[Jim L.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

.....why on earth would people bring a car to a meet when there's a distinct possibility of an inexperienced judge inadvertently invoking the kiss of death on a pad because he's never seen one with an example of common factory screw ups?

I can accept an inexperienced judge getting it wrong.

In the particular instance I cited, the judge made his bones claiming to be an expert on engine pads. For him to get it completely wrong is a whole lot less acceptable.

Jim

[Jim L.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

That's why the OP's question has yet to be adequately answered.

After re-reading the question a few times, I don't believe it has an answer.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Which brings up the point that engine pads are worth relatively few points in judging. Adding this to the fact that they are not authenticated or certified in any way just makes me wonder. There again, many things make me wonder.

In my case at one judging, it was 85 points alone, enough to put my car at 93.8, when earlier (and later) judging did not show that 85 point deduction. It does make a difference when judged as "NTFP". If they think it is wose than that, it can be 350 points or more. But I agree it is not all about the points, the rumors of a "faked" engine pad stamp can put a scarlet letter on you and your car for a long while.

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

I can accept an inexperienced judge getting it wrong.

In the particular instance I cited, the judge made his bones claiming to be an expert on engine pads. For him to get it completely wrong is a whole lot less acceptable.

Jim

Which, to repeat myself, is why you can shred/forget/erase/reformat that individual experience and try again till you can get the results you want. An 'expert' incorrect call is the same amount of points as a 'newbie' call.

Whether you lose Clem's quoted $2-3K because you're not happy with the pad judging or paint judging or ops or wheels/tires jusging it's still money 'wasted' according to some.

Why the narrow focus on engine pads is my sole question.

[Michael J.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Why the narrow focus on engine pads is my sole question.

To me and many others I have spoken with about this, it is the value associated with a "real deal matching numbers original engine" that was paid for and incorporated into the existing value of the judged car. Just take a look at the value differences between NOM cars and the real deal, pretty simple unless you didn't pay for an original engine and will never sell it anyway. Then, I agree, why focus on that engine pad stamp?

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS Judging Awards

Michael,

If the engine pads were being authenticated and certified by bona fide and accredited experts who held themselves accountable in a court of law then I would agree, yes, all pad judging would be critical.

But none of the above happens in Flight Judging.