non-original sidepipe deduction...

[Philip A.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Phil -

I'll say it again - no car is going to be branded as counterfeit for having added sidepipes; it'll just get a significant deduction. The counterfeiting penalties only apply to alterations of VIN plates, trim tags, block casting numbers and casting dates.

Instead of running with third and fourth-hand tales and opinions, if all else fails, folks should read the applicable section #34 on Counterfeit Discovery Penalties in the 8th Edition Corvette Judging Reference Manual on page 22-23; it's perfectly clear.

Anyone involved in judging or having their car judged who doesn't have (or hasn't read) the Judging Reference Manual is flying blind.

John
THANK YOU for commenting. Unfortunately, this is not 3rd-4th hand commentary. I have read Roy's message in the Restorer Vol 37 #4 Spring 2011, page 5 and it is unclear and open to interpretation regarding side-pipes resulting in a "counterfeit " branding. Also, this was told to my Chapter by our Judging Chairman! Please forgive my persistence; but unless I see something from Roy in writting regarding clarifying this issue, we are all just providing our own opinion and interpretation without knowing if it is correct.

[John C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

To my knowledge the only info that that the NCRS keeps on a judged car is the date it was judged, the final score, exterior color, interior color, and car horsepower. They do not keep track of any other options or what the deductions taken on a car were for.

Outside of what is listed above the car is judged as presented. You could receive a complete deduction for an added option at one meet and then make the required corrections after. If presented for judging a second time it's previous history would not be used in judging.

John

[Ralph B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Ralph,
Correct me if I am wrong, I get the feeling you are thinking about adding sidepipes to a St. Louis car, then going for NCRS judging while hoping for the highest score possible. If you do this, what will you declare on the GREEN SHEET? It says something along the lines of "to the best of my knowledge only the items I have listed are non-factory installed." If you deliberatly mis-state a fact on the green sheet and this is discovered the judging chair will take a dim view of this.
NCRS judges above a certain level are very good at finding added sidepipes. I don't think you will be able get through the process without detection.
All this being said, what you do is your business and not mine. No offence intended, but I would not knowingly show a car without stating on the green sheet what I had changed/added. Bill

That's not the case Bill, actully this issue seems to develop a ton of debate whenever it comes about, whereas most seem to jump on one side of the fence or the other, quite strongly in fact. For me, I love both systems, yes, lots of pros and cons either way.

You must admit, our society has taken VERY strong position on this, and I'm not sure it needs to go that extreme?

As we know there is a whole bunch of very talented guys out there that capable of installing almost any option in a 100% undetectable manor.


If you own an AO body car with side exhaust you get significantly penalized with points. ------- Why, because you can simply see it on the trim tag! -- easy !

If you do a stellar undetectable installation of ANY non original option, as long as it's appropriate with the trim tag, you will receive good points.

Lets compare the crime:

Side exhaust; yes it changes the looks and sound to a certain degree, but it hardly has any affect on it's driving characteristics.

If we convert a 4 speed to an automatic, add power steering, change a hydraulic cam to a solid lifter cam, or change the suspension from standard to HD, undetectably !!!! --------- then, we will profoundly alter it's character.

I suppose if GM had added additional floor space to the existing St. Louis plant and subsequently added a second assembly line, therefore eliminating the need for the A.O Smith production we wouldn't be having this discussion.

On a comparative basis, this almost seems unfair or at least inconsistent to me. More importantly it discourages good Corvette owners from entering our society ---- maybe more than we realize?

I'm all for technical correctness and specification, but this is neither ------ why penalize so severely over a production decision made a thousand years ago by GM ?

In the end, whether its a side exhaust system or an under car system accomplishes the same job ----- just lets the fumes out !!!!

Anyway, that's it !!!!! -------- I'm sure this will open the door for some HD criticism, that's OK !

Thank you,
Ralph

[Gary B.]

Additions & deletions recorded for subsequent use

... If any car is determined to have an added or deleted option (ie post factory mods) then all points associated with that option are a complete deduct. This complete deduction is recorded and referred to at subsequent meets.

Michael,

What NCRS document is the basis for your last sentence?

Gary

[Jack H.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

"I have been told that now, when a car is found to be non-original sidepipe during judging, it is going into the NCRS database as a "counterfeit"

Who told you this? They're dreaming and spreading rumors...

The complete text of the club's new rules on counterfeiting are published in the 8th Edition of the Judging Reference Manual. That's a horse of a different color compared to the addition or deletion of non-factory original options to a car. The later transgression simply requires a full deduction for all aspects of the car so affected by the addition/deletion.

We publish our rules and yet wild rumors spread regarding how this/that will be dealt with. Unbelieveable!

[John H.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

John
THANK YOU for commenting. Unfortunately, this is not 3rd-4th hand commentary. I have read Roy's message in the Restorer Vol 37 #4 Spring 2011, page 5 and it is unclear and open to interpretation regarding side-pipes resulting in a "counterfeit " branding. Also, this was told to my Chapter by our Judging Chairman! Please forgive my persistence; but unless I see something from Roy in writting regarding clarifying this issue, we are all just providing our own opinion and interpretation without knowing if it is correct.

Phil -

There is nothing in Roy's "Restorer" message that says added sidepipes will result in a car being branded "counterfeit". Have you read Section 34 ("Counterfeit Discovery Penalties") in the 8th Edition Judging Reference Manual on pages 22-23? It's pretty clear.

[Michael W.]

Re: Additions & deletions recorded for subsequent use

Michael,

What NCRS document is the basis for your last sentence?

Gary

The latest (Vol 37, number 4 Restorer), page 5 penultimate paragraph. This page is what kicked off all the fuss.

Always wanted to use the word penultimate.

[Gary C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Phillip,

Can confirm that cars with added side pipes that were not originally installed at the factory is not a qualifier for being "branded counterfeit".

As John Hinckley suggests - please read the 8th Edition Judging Reference Manual section 2 #34, section 4 #8, #9 and section 6 #3.

Gary
....

[Philip A.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Phillip,

Can confirm that cars with added side pipes that were not originally installed at the factory is not a qualifier for being "branded counterfeit".

As John Hinckley suggests - please read the 8th Edition Judging Reference Manual section 2 #34, section 4 #8, #9 and section 6 #3.

Gary
....

Gary
THANK YOU! Given the attention this issue has gotten, and the extent of misinterpretation/misunderstanding; I would strongly recommend that NCRS send a clear official clarification regarding side-pipes and "counterfeit" branding. As I said previously, for me, this was coming from a Chapter Judging Chairman [where my car was to be judged]. Based on this information (from the Judging Chairman); I was no longer going to have my car judged. I have no problem with a points deduction; it was "counterfeit" branding of the car in the NCRS database that bothered me.

[Gary C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Philip,

NCRS has sent a clear and defined message to members and Chapter Judging Chairman via the 8th edition of the Judging Reference Manual and Regional/Convention Judging presentations over the last two years.

Gary
....

[Clark K.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Earlier this month Gary Beaupre ask what non-original sidepipes would cost the owner in points during judging. My 1966 coupe was judged at Joplin this year, my judging sheets arrived yesterday and after totaling the deductions for added sidepipes I come up with 83 points. Judges missed item 19 (exhaust tone) on operations. Had they caught this my deduction would have been 108. I expected I larger deduction, but checked the sheets twice.
My raw score was 90.3, but after adding 8.2 driving points my total was 98.5%. Bill

Bill, congratulations on driving your car 800 miles one-way and getting a Top Flight at Joplin.

I come up with 78 total points for non-original side exhaust. I realize that is a big points hit for one item. My car has the same issue (exhaust was installed by a former owner in late 80's) but has never yet taken "exhaust note" deductions on the operations section.

I accept the side exhaust deductions because I love the side exhaust and will not take them off to recover any amount of points. You can drive yourself crazy trying to satisfy the NCRS judges. I take pleasure in the "Chevy Thunder" right outside my window and this far exceeds my displeasure at Flight judging meets. Satisfy yourself and you will be happiest. -Clark

[Gary B.]

Non-original sidepipe deduction; 78 points is too low

... I come up with 78 total points for non-original side exhaust...

Clark,

Based on my review of the recent postings on added side exhaust I believe that most cars with added side exhaust that are detected during judging are likely to lose substantially more than 78 points. My estimate of the total points loss for side exhaust it in the range of 110 to 120 points, presuming a variable deduct in the Fiberglass & Fit category on the Exterior judging sheets. The deduct for any specific car could be higher or lower, but on average I think it's safe to say one is as risk of losing at least 110 points, assuming the 3 relevant judging teams (Chassis, Exterior, OPS) each realizes that the side exhaust is added and judge accordingly.

Gary

[Michael W.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Most meets do the OPS section first. That team would not know if the side pipes were factory installed or not. Is there some step for the Chassis judges or the Tab team to go back to the OPs judging results to revise the score if it is determined that the side pipes were not original?

[Gene M.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Most meets do the OPS section first. That team would not know if the side pipes were factory installed or not. Is there some step for the Chassis judges or the Tab team to go back to the OPs judging results to revise the score if it is determined that the side pipes were not original?

Mike,
It is up to the team leader and judging chairman to have an understanding and uniform judging by all the teams on that car that treat the addition or deletion the same. One team (say chassis) can not ok the side pipes while another (body guys) deducts for it. Team leaders need to "review" the flight row early in the judging process to have a fair and equal evaluation.

This is one of the reasons the team leader reviews the judging sheets prior to tabulation.

[Gary B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Michael,

I agree with what Gene says, but I can tell you there have been situations where the Chassis team and Exterior team have consulted about the side pipes, but where the OPs team has done there stuff and already signed off, since as you state the OPs team often does their thing before any other teams look at the car. It's an issue that I will certainly pay more attention to the next time I judge a car with side pipes.

Gary