non-original sidepipe deduction...

[Gary B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

if side pipes on a C2 are added correctly(as the factory would have installed them) what is the "standard deduction" and what categories are they in. ...

John,

If side pipes are added to a St. Louis car and if the addition is done "correctly", i.e., identical in every regard to how the factory did it, there would be no deduction, standard or otherwise. If done 100% correctly there is no way for a judge to know they were added.

Gary

[John S.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

John,

If side pipes are added to a St. Louis car and if the addition is done "correctly", i.e., identical in every regard to how the factory did it, there would be no deduction, standard or otherwise. If done 100% correctly there is no way for a judge to know they were added.

Gary

let's assume it is not a st. louis car.

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Aside from the dead giveaway of the trim tag there are other differences to ID an AOS build from a St Louis body. By definition, no Sidepipe cars were built at AOS due to special tooling that resided only at the St Louis facility. Full Deduct in all affected areas.

[John S.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

i am looking forward to a judge to list the areas affected and the number of points the judge would deduct in each of the areas affected for non-original sidepipes. the basis will be a 66 with sidepipes (installed to the specifications of those at the st. louis plant) on a non-st. louis car. in the end i like to see an actual number for the total deduction!

[John H.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I have been told that now, when a car is found to be non-original sidepipe during judging, it is going into the NCRS database as a "counterfeit" side pipie car and is not supposed to be judged again by NCRS until this has been corrected. Can someone confirm if this is correct?

Phil -

No, it's not. Sidepipes have nothing to do with the "counterfeit" issues or penalties described in the Judging Reference Manual. The specific issue you referenced was an incorrect interpretation/application of the policy.

[Jim R.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

So shouldn't any added option fall into this category , teak wheel, pb ps ,hd suspension, hard top, red lines, off road exhaust, why so harsh on side exhaust cars.

[Terry M.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

So shouldn't any added option fall into this category , teak wheel, pb ps ,hd suspension, hard top, red lines, off road exhaust, why so harsh on side exhaust cars.

Jim,

Please READ John Hinckley's post made 12 minutes before your question.

[Rick A.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

John,

Will try and give you as complete an answer as I can give from a judge who is still learning! Believe the point deductions would be as follows:

EXHAUST SYSTEM

10 originality and 10 condition - exhaust pipes and mufflers
5 originality and 5 condition - mounting, hangers and clamps
5 originality and 5 condition - heat shields, ground straps and exhaust tips

ROCKER MOLDINGS or Coves

15 originality and 15 condition - molding or side exhaust covers, brakcets and fasteners

REAR LICENSE AREA

4 originality and 4 condition - exhaust bezels

Think I captured all the areas within the CHASSIS and EXTERIOR areas where points would be deducted

Look forward to others comments

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I'm not sure if I can do it, but I'll try to cut and pase a matrix I did in response to this question last year. I may have missed something, I may be a bit heavy or light, but it is in the ballpark for a "Max" deduct.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]
Manual Ref Deviation Points Ded OR Condition
OPS-19 Sound Quality 25






Chassis



Eng Comp-3 Lacking w/s and Staples 2 2





Exh Syst-12 full on all items 20 20





Body



FG Fit-3 Lack of doglegs for rocker moulding attachment and added cutout on the rear wheel inner fender. Could also cite lack of metal rocker cover supports here. Also missing holes for outlets and the associated reinforcements on rear panel closeout 18 13





Rocker Mldgs & Covers-16 Parts used with SP do not resemble the ones delivered on the car 15 15





Rear Lisc. Area-17 Missing Bezels 4 4





Summary
84 54










138 total from above. Let me know if I missed something.

[Joe C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I have been told that now, when a car is found to be non-original sidepipe during judging, it is going into the NCRS database as a "counterfeit" side pipie car and is not supposed to be judged again by NCRS until this has been corrected. Can someone confirm if this is correct?

Phil -

No, it's not. Sidepipes have nothing to do with the "counterfeit" issues or penalties described in the Judging Reference Manual. The specific issue you referenced was an incorrect interpretation/application of the policy.

I have a very similar thread going on in another forum as the same thing happened to a friend of mine at a local NCRS show.. He has a car (st louie) that has side pipes that were not original to the car. It was then labeled a counterfeit although from talking with him the judging sheets don't state that. He was told that the car could no longer be judged until he put the under car exhaust back on the car.. I gotta tell you this is pure BS and the chapters need to understand the rules..

Looking at the Spring Restorer, Roy S's example CLEARLY states the car will just continue to get the full deduct until its original again.. I appreciate that John H. has also stated that this is an incorrect interpetation of the rules.. I sure hope that the chapters that have done this correct their mistake..

/joe

[Michael W.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I have a very similar thread going on in another forum as the same thing happened to a friend of mine at a local NCRS show..

It's the same car at the same event being discussed on that other forum. Pretty much same cast of characters too.

[Gary B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

It's the same car at the same event being discussed on that other forum. Pretty much same cast of characters too.

Do you have a link to that other discussion?

Thanks,

Gary

[Gary B.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

FG Fit-3 Lack of doglegs for rocker moulding attachment and added cutout on the rear wheel inner fender. Could also cite lack of metal rocker cover supports here. Also missing holes for outlets and the associated reinforcements on rear panel closeout 18 13

Bill,

Are you saying one might lose 28 points for FG fit?

Gary

[John S.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

I'm not sure if I can do it, but I'll try to cut and pase a matrix I did in response to this question last year. I may have missed something, I may be a bit heavy or light, but it is in the ballpark for a "Max" deduct.

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]
Manual Ref Deviation Points Ded OR Condition
OPS-19 Sound Quality 25




Chassis



Eng Comp-3 Lacking w/s and Staples 2 2





Exh Syst-12 full on all items 20 20





Body



FG Fit-3 Lack of doglegs for rocker moulding attachment and added cutout on the rear wheel inner fender. Could also cite lack of metal rocker cover supports here. Also missing holes for outlets and the associated reinforcements on rear panel closeout 18 13





Rocker Mldgs & Covers-16 Parts used with SP do not resemble the ones delivered on the car 15 15





Rear Lisc. Area-17 Missing Bezels 4 4





Summary
84 54










138 total from above. Let me know if I missed something.

thanks Bill, this shows a person needs a lot of knowledge and experience in judging these cars!

[William C.]

Re: non-original sidepipe deduction...

Can't give condition points for missing items, so it's possible. Remember this is only a hypothetical, and was intended to look at the max that could be deducted scenario. Typically in practical application I've seen around 80 points, but the scenario was presented a while back in response to the question as to "what if?" It assumes the team leader coordinates the information to all of the teams and/or the situation is caught prior to ops check.