65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

[Alan D.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Interesting subject especially since I don't own a 63 - I stay tuned for more! Now;
"Its only hearsay (Myth) again show me in writing in a service article."

A little story - believe or not. Back in 70 I removed the tires from my KO and cleaned them. Well they kept going flat on me; really only very low pressure, but had to fill all the time. Was complaining to a friend and he ask if I also cleaned the inside - well of course, "that figures" and continued to inform me that some form of a coating was used on the inside to prevent such leakage which I cleaned off. Well - put up with the leaking tires until the mid 2000 when I had KO cleaned again, installed those super racing 6.70 4 Ply put back on, and inside coated. Filled them back in 2007 and as of today they do not need air.

[James G.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Over the years I have heard all the stories about 1963 Knock offs. Check out this VIDEO on U-TUBE from the DAVE MAC DONALD website. http://www.davemacdonald.net/gallery...deogallery.htm You have to move the arrow to the right at the bottom of the screen and see the second group of movies to find the PICK UP CAR scene. These films were taken in the first week of October 1962. The Daytona Blue Mickey Thompson car that Doug Hooper drove was shipped via Flying Tiger Air to Long Beach on September 14, 1962. Its vin was a single digit, and this car went thru extensive brake tests at RIVERSIDE by Mickey Thompson's crew and driver Doug Hooper and Don Meline prior to the race. It was a Pilot line car These other three cars were driven home.

There are 21 videos to pick from, so chose the PICK UP CAR video and you will see that all the cars have painted steel wheels and Hub caps. What the movie does not show, is that all three of these cars (BOB BONDURANT, DAVE MACDONALD and JERRY GRANT) had knock off wheels when the cars were originally inspected late in the afternoon and the TIRES WERE FLAT !

Bob, Dave's widow Sherry and Jerry have all confirmed, as this movie shows that steel wheels and caps were in place early in the morning when all three left for California and Seattle. It was this experierce where the story came about flat tires, and consequently led GM and Chevrolet to deliver cars WITH ONLY STEEL WHEELS. Kelsey Hayes did have a problem with leaking tires, that was corrected.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Al, great story, Jim thanks very much for the input and those great videos. Paul Reinhart told me some time ago that when he picked up his car right after Jerry, Bob and Dave. The GM guys told him about the wheels not holding air and that's why they are not on his car. They were to send them later, but they never got them. He told me they didn't care because they used the after market wheels that were lighter and wider (7 in). MY problem is if the wheels had that bad of a air leaking problem, they would have known about it long before they got those cars ready for them to be picked up. The videos show the two cars being tested around the track with the wheels and I am sure it wasn't a one day test. The Friday Night News Letter to all the dealers dated Sept 28, 1962 said "RPO P48 testing has now been completed and it is expected this option will be available from production in early October". I have an article from Competition Press dated Jan 12, 1963 showing a photo of the left rear tire with two bar wheels on a 63 coupe with Zora Duntov in the back ground. The article is about them testing firestone tires at Sebring, Fla. the weekend of Dec. 15-16. A bunch of people were there; Mickey and Dick Thompson, Doug Hooper, Al Gunter, and Masten Gregory. They weren't there for pizza and a beer, you can be sure of that. Also in your videos of the March Sebring race you can see a couple of the cars with ko’s on them. If the wheels were good enough to race 12 hours, why not good enough for production? Jim you said above that the leaking tires were corrected, I would agree, would you (and anyone else that has the guts to step up) also agree, that it is POSSIBLE for some of the 21,513 1963 corvettes to have factory installed ko wheels esp. some of the Z06 cars? -Phil 8063

[James G.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Phil,
First off thanks for sharing your history here. I feel it is MOST IMPORTANT that we have this discourse in a venue like this so all can get an understanding of the time and people.

Your facts are very correct. I have a photo of a silver Mickey Thompson Z0-6 with knock offs used in that Firestone tire test December 15-16 at Sebring. Doug Hooper and I drove across America in 2009 and went over 5200 miles in 17 days to Michigan , Carlisle, the great car collections of Jim Jaegar (Dave MacDonald Z0-6 and 57 #4 Sebring) and Harry Yeaggy ( Grand Sport #001 that Doug drove and many others) and then the Hall of Fame at the Museum before returning to California. I was very lucky to really get to know Doug better than ever during these 700 mile days and 3 day lay-overs at these key locations. All the stories should be in "The Book" if I ever sit down and write it.

The knock off wheel leaking air problem was two fold. Porosity in the wheels themselves, and tire bead slippage where the tire would spin on the wheel under hard acceleration. Liners were installed and different sealants used to correct the problem, and even the use of tubes inside the tires. Sealant won out from what Doug said, and finally in early 1964 wheels began to appear regularily on production cars.

Delmo Johnson used the knock off wheels on his # 3 Z0-6 at Sebring in March 1963. I hope to see Delmo April 12 and I will ask him and Dave Morgan more about these wheels if they can remember.

Also, we believe that the 63 coupe test car that Dave MacDonald drove at Milford with Dr. Dick was the same car Doug raced at Riverside and won the Times Grand Prix in October. It's vin number was in the first 20 cars made. Engineering had that car since June 1963, and it got special treatment and testing at Riverside prior to the race. The same car went to Daytona in February 16-17, 1963 and Doug drove it again that weekend. It was returned to Detroit at the end of February, where the other Mickey Thompson cars came back to California.

Never say NEVER......as anything is possible especially these days. However, back in late 62 or early 63 I don't know of any Corvettes "delivered" with wheels. Z0-6 #8915 has the wheels on the purchase order dated June 26, 1963, but NOT THE WINDOW STICKER. There is a seperate bill from the dealer for the wheels at NO CHARGE in January 1964 when the owner finally received them. Just one example I know Phil, but I will agree, NEVER SAY NEVER !

[Edward S.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

The closest I came to ever hearing about 63 KO's was in the mid-80's I bought a S/W red/black which had won multiple top flights - I went to a Regional in Mystic Seaport,
Conn. to earn a top flight in my own name. Parked next to a 63 Z06 from Long Island
saddle/saddle - was still owned by the original owner. Can not rember his name, but knew who he was from all the stories I had read about him and his one owner Z06. He was also part of the judging team at the meet, since we were parked next to each other and had our wives with us - we had the opportunity to discuss S/Ws at some length. My car was a 12/62 build, his a 1/63 build - he went on to tell me that it took forever for his car to be delivered, and that every time he checked on it he was given different reasons why it was not shipped yet. After 3/4 months he was told that the plant was waiting to ship the car until the KO's were available - he requested the car be shipped ASAP with steel wheels and they could catch up with the KO's when they were available. He never got the KO's or some type of credit for whatever part of the cost of the Z06 option the KO's would be. I felt sorry for him, his car had won all the awards available at the time - so he put it away in storage. When the "Duntov" was
offered - he elected to take the car out of storage and go after the Duntov. That year we were parked in a open hotel parking lot with no shade in sight. It was very hot out there, he went off to judge cars and I was sitting there with our wives enjoying the show. It was around 12:30 when I noticed that near his rear window his paint was starting to get large bubbles coming up. I went and found him on the field, he came back and put a large wet towel over that area and went back to judging. I was really impressed at how calm he seemed to be and mentioned that to his wife. She brought me back to the real world when she said " I know all the way back to Long Island I won't hear one word from him". At the time he thought all the time in storage had let moisture build up under the paint, and now the very hot sun was
in fact steaming the moisture and making the gas that was causing the bubbles. As I said I admired how calm he was - had it been me I would have been looking for the nearest tree to throw a rope over.

[James G.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

ED, I am sure you are talking about DAVID VAN WEELE. His story is here http://www.z06vette.com/63.php

He sold the car at BARRETT JACKSON in January 2006.

[Brian M.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I believe David's car was judged at a LI Metro meet.

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

First I would like to apologize to John Kohler for Hi-Jacking his thread. Hi Jim and Ed S just some house keeping for a minute. Jim the 8915 car you wrote June 26, 1963, S/B 1962 right ? That was a silver red built F3, body #4946 That car had the split cut out of the rear window as I remember. I didn't know about the paper work with the car, I would love a copy of it if its possible, thanks. Jim I hope you do see Delmo in April hes is not in very good shape. Hi Ed nice story, I think I was there with my '53 in Mystic. I know Dave and his car very well beacuse I also live on Long Island. Dave's car was 15,675 built I4, 4th week of May, you wrote 1-63? To anyone else Please jump in or call me my cell 516-680-6711 Thanks Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

KO wheels were clearly in the works during the 1963 MY run, and long before an option or parts are released for production, most, if not all the production documentation, like AIM sheets are approved and released in anticipation of the option being released, and this is the key.

Problems with production or validation testing of the option/parts can delay release of the option/parts even though all the production documentation is complete and released, which is why the '63 AIM has sheets for the KO option.

I think there is an analagous situation in the '67 AIM. Sheets show assembly of a cold air induction system for the big block hood, but it was never released for production.

Similarly, there are sheets in the 1976 Vega AIM showing option MY1, which was a light weight four-speed derivative of the Borg-Warner T-50 five-speed, but it was never released, and the cast iron "Saginaw" transmission continued to be the only four-speed available for all H-bodies,

Duke

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Duke "Problems with production or validation testing of the option/parts can delay release of the option/parts even though all the production documentation is complete and released, which is why the '63 AIM has sheets for the KO option" Thats very interesting and I like that word "analagous". But I don't think that means they were not released for production, do you? Thanks Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

I have never seen any evidence to suggest that KO wheels were released for production prior to the end of the 1963 MY production run.

When I ordered my SWC in February 1963, I wanted the KOs, but was informed that ordering KOs would delay production of my car, so I dropped it from my specified option list.

I expect if I had "waited" my SWC would have ended up being a '64 Coupe, so I'm glad I dropped the KOs from my special order.

Duke

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Duke: Considering the evidence presented on this thread, would you agree that it is POSSIBLE that some 1963 cars, especially Z06 cars, could have been released from production with the KO wheels? I am not trying to put anybody between a rock and a hard place, just bring out infomation so people can have a educated discussion on facts, not opinions. Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Considering all the evidence presented in this thread and all other evidence I have ever seen regarding KO wheels for the 1963 model year, it is my opinion that not one single "production" car (which doesn't include the 25 pilot line cars) was ever equipped with KO wheels as it rolled off the St. Louis line.

No, I don't believe it's even possible, because I am of the firm believe that it didn't happen.

Some of the "two-bar" KO wheels sets which have a different adapter design (as shown in the 1963 Shop Manual) did make it into the public domain - I don't know how.

Also, '63 owners who were dying to have KOs on their car could buy them over the counter after they were released for production for the '64 MY. By the time this happened I was over "Knockoff Fever". One of the reasons was that I found out that KOs including the adapters were considerably heavier than the standard steel wheels, and not long after I took delivery I realized that the OE General Jetaires were junk, so I replaced them after about a year with Michelin X radials that yielded a lot more bang for the buck.

Duke

[Philip C.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

Hi Duke OK I repect that, But could you PLEASE tell me why you think that, (as the man said just facts) Thanks very much. Phil 8063

[Duke W.]

Re: 65 Coupe w/ 64 knock-offs

For the same reason I don't believe that 409s were ever installed in production Corvettes or that any production Corvette ever had a steel body, despite claims to the contrary. If there is no reliable evidence that some production configuration exists, then the logical conclusion is that it does not exist.

It's time to move on. This one has been beat to death.

Duke