Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

[Steven C.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Mike I am pretty sure the form also asks engine size and horsepower.

Terry, you are indeed correct. Every owner attests to the engine size and horsepower as part of the registration.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Mike I am pretty sure the form also asks engine size and horsepower.

The sheet you are supposed to fill out at registration does. However, I have never filled that part out, and the stickers they put on your judging sheet packet does not have that info. The judges have never asked me about it during judging either. As I understood it, this is up to the judges to determine and fill out after they inspect the engine stamp pad, casting number, etc. and the owners idea of what it is is irrelevant. Maybe I am wrong and you should "present" the car as having matching numbers, etc. before judging?

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

OK, but as I said, I have never "presented" a car as anything before judging. Those HP and engine code spaces on the Chassis and Mechanical judging sheets were filled in by the judging team lead, not me. And at registration, I have only provided my name, address, miles driven to the event, year, body type, color, and the VIN, nothing else. Maybe different judges require different info, but I have been through many and they never required I "present" or claim anything about the engine.

Michael,

Not to argue, but the sheets are indeed filled in before the judges get their about-to-be-grubby hands on them to provide a starting point. Whether it be done by the tabs, the judging chair, team leader etc etc, is not important. How could they know what to put in the space without pre-judging the car if the info was not provided by the owner? It would not make sense for the judges or the chair to assume the task of 'reverse engineering' the engine code in the case of a NOM or blank pad.

With respect to the engine stamp pad, it is judged on it's own merits as being typical/not typical, with each of the three elements being evaluated independently. Even in the instance of an 88 point deduct, as would be the case with a rotary milled and 'decked' block, this has no impact on any further judging.

No attempt is made to authenticate or certify that the engine case is the factory original.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Michael,

Not to argue, but the sheets are indeed filled in before the judges get their about-to-be-grubby hands on them to provide a starting point. Whether it be done by the tabs, the judging chair, team leader etc etc, is not important. How could they know what to put in the space without pre-judging the car if the info was not provided by the owner? It would not make sense for the judges or the chair to assume the task of 'reverse engineering' the engine code in the case of a NOM or blank pad.

With respect to the engine stamp pad, it is judged on it's own merits as being typical/not typical, with each of the three elements being evaluated independently. Even in the instance of an 88 point deduct, as would be the case with a rotary milled and 'decked' block, this has no impact on any further judging.

No attempt is made to authenticate or certify that the engine case is the factory original.

OK, not to argue, but I have all my judging sheets in front of me, and they were filled out by the mechanical and chassis judges after inspecting my car (several in fact are still blank), I did not fill that out. And frankly the 88 point deduct has been issued to a broad variety of engine stamp pads that are not obviously rotary milled, decked and restamped, based on "looks too good" or "looks to perfect" kind of comments even if the broach marks are correct and longitudinal to the block. I agree that no attempt is made to authenticate or certify that the engine is factory original. However, I feel it is a waste of time for the owner to attest or present the engine as whatever, since that makes no difference to the judges in judging the car. They always prevail anyway.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

I have a spare block for my 63 car. It's a Flint block from a 63 Impala 327/300 and my question relates to the stamp pad.

If casting# and cast date is correct and I never touch the stamp pad I will receive a 50 point deduction for Flint stamp and St. Louis stamp,(25/ea.) and no deduction for broach because it's untouched, is this correct??

If so, I only loose 50 points total on block so if one can live with it there is a good reason not to deck and restamp because the car may actually score better and $$$ for restamp.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

The sheet you are supposed to fill out at registration does. However, I have never filled that part out, and the stickers they put on your judging sheet packet does not have that info. The judges have never asked me about it during judging either. As I understood it, this is up to the judges to determine and fill out after they inspect the engine stamp pad, casting number, etc. and the owners idea of what it is is irrelevant. Maybe I am wrong and you should "present" the car as having matching numbers, etc. before judging?

If you (as the car owner) have never filled out engine size and horsepower, the meet registration folks are not doing their job. They are supposed to return those incomplete forms to the owner for completion. You, as the car owner, have to tell us what you think you have. Then we tell you if we think it conforms to Typical Factory Production for that configuration.

Edit add: What has the "green sheet" that you signed stated re: the engine size and horsepower?

By completing the registration forms you are NOT indicating "matching numbers" whatever that might mean to you or others. You are simply stating, to the best of your knowledge, the information asked for. The judges, in their subsequent evaluation, are also not stating "matching numbers" either. They are simply evaluating the appearance of the engine as it conforms, or doesn't conform, to known production appearance based on what you tell us. If you tell us nothing – our response should also be nothing. It is NOT up to the judges to determine what you bring to us. I am deeply saddened to hear that the NCRS system has failed you.

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

If casting# and cast date is correct and I never touch the stamp pad I will receive a 50 point deduction for Flint stamp and St. Louis stamp,(25/ea.) and no deduction for broach because it's untouched, is this correct??

That's correct. The pad surface is judged independently, irrespective of the other two features so this block would keep the 38 points allocated. There's very little 'point' incentive to deck a block, rebroach and restamp. A bird in the hand so to speak.

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

OK, not to argue, but I have all my judging sheets in front of me, and they were filled out by the mechanical and chassis judges after inspecting my car (several in fact are still blank), I did not fill that out. And frankly the 88 point deduct has been issued to a broad variety of engine stamp pads that are not obviously rotary milled, decked and restamped, based on "looks too good" or "looks to perfect" kind of comments even if the broach marks are correct and longitudinal to the block. I agree that no attempt is made to authenticate or certify that the engine is factory original. However, I feel it is a waste of time for the owner to attest or present the engine as whatever, since that makes no difference to the judges in judging the car. They always prevail anyway.

Michael,

I can only suggest that you jump the fence for a while and attend some judging schools to learn how the system works. Misinterpretation or misunderstandings can frequently lead to conflict on the judging field and take the fun out of the event for the participants.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

That's correct. The pad surface is judged independently, irrespective of the other two features so this block would keep the 38 points allocated. There's very little 'point' incentive to deck a block, rebroach and restamp. A bird in the hand so to speak.

I would agree with that too. However, though there is no "point" incentive in restamping, there is much $$ incentive, especially if the NCRS judges get fooled.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Michael,

I can only suggest that you jump the fence for a while and attend some judging schools to learn how the system works. Misinterpretation or misunderstandings can frequently lead to conflict on the judging field and take the fun out of the event for the participants.

I have and I do.

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

I would agree with that too. However, though there is no "point" incentive in restamping, there is much $$ incentive, especially if the NCRS judges get fooled.

Unfortunately you're right- there are those that join purely for that motive and apparently still sleep well at night. The NCRS judging system is occasionally seen by the unwashed masses as part of the problem and as a result, gets dragged into the mess along with the counterfeiters when they start grabbing at straws. The Kissimmee Foot Kicker was a good example, but not much can be done about it under the existing rules.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Edit add: What has the "green sheet" that you signed stated re: the engine size and horsepower?

I never received a "green sheet" back, but the yellow scoring summary sheet is not signed by the owner, only the team leader. And that sheet is blank where Horsepower is listed. It has the location of meet, and miles driven to the meet filled out. Again, the white sticker is used, which has name, address, year, body type, exterior color, and VIN as well as your member number and position number on the field. I think I signed a sheet at checkin, but can't remember the color or if the engine HP, CI was filled out there either, but I think just the white sticker was used. My Mechanical sheet has the engine code and HP filled out, but the judge did that. The Chassis sheet has that info blank. Of course we (myself and the judging team lead) discussed at great length and detail all the scoring and deduction points after each team completed their work (and they were fantastic and professional about everything), and I initialed all the judging sheets and thanked the judges profusely.

I don't feel the system "failed me". I found out so much about my cars during all the different judging meets, it was wonderful. I just don't see how "presenting" the cars as one thing or another could have added anything to that experience and don't see how it effects the judging points. But I am not sure if you say you have an L71, and it turns out to be an L36 (though the numbers match and the pad is OK), how many more points are deducted because you are ignorant about your car? So people who are novices and are not aware can get hammered because of that? That doesn't seem fair either.

I just think you guys are representing consistency and rigid process that is not of importance and obviously doesn't exist across the board. But if you say that is the way it supposed to be done, I can't argue about it, you the boss, I'm just a junior 3 year member doing all this. But I don't feel "cheated" or "left out" just because I didn't fill all that out on the sheets and they didn't force me to do it. Will they take away all my Top Flights?

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

I don't feel the system "failed me". I found out so much about my cars during all the different judging meets, it was wonderful. I just don't see how "presenting" the cars as one thing or another could have added anything to that experience and don't see how it effects the judging points. But I am not sure if you say you have an L71, and it turns out to be an L36 (though the numbers match and the pad is OK), how many more points are deducted because you are ignorant about your car? So people who are novices and are not aware can get hammered because of that? That doesn't seem fair either.

Michael,

I believe you've really got the wrong end of the stick and can only repeat my suggestion to attend some basic judging schools. All of this will then become obvious and logical.

Good luck.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Mike,

The "green sheet" doesn't come back to you. It goes to the NCRS Judging office and is filed there. I put "green sheet" in quotes because while it is often green it sometimes is copied on other color paper depending on where the blank form originates.

In my statement that the NCRS Judging System failed you, I didn't mean to imply you may have not have had a positive experience. I simply meant that the system did not work the way it is supposed to. Would your experience have been enhanced if the system worked the way it was supposed to? No way to tell now. That toothpaste is out of the tube. Would your experience have been less if you declared some engine size and horsepower? Again there is no way to tell, but I doubt it would have made a difference. We will never know either way.

If you are happy, I guess at this point that is all that matters in your case.

In almost 15 years as National Team Leader I never had a case where the owner stated the engine was one thing and the judges determined it to be something else, and I had blank pads, pads with rotary marks and stamps present, and pads with the right code and VIN different from the VIN of the car. (We almost missed the last one, but that is another story. ) I won't say I have seen all the deviations there can be. I am still learning every day.

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Michael,

I believe you've really got the wrong end of the stick and can only repeat my suggestion to attend some basic judging schools. All of this will then become obvious and logical.

Good luck.

Again, I have, several including advanced ones and as an observer judge, some taught by Roy Sinor himself at regionals. But I still fail to understand why the lack of knowledge of an owner should be used against them in judging.