Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

[Steven S.]

Ok, say you a judging a 1966 L72, and the car has a L36 block in it, the casting number and dates are correct, pad is good but obviously wrong suffix and VIN. How would that be handled? Do you just get a 25 point deduct for assembly stamp and a 25 point deduct for the wrong VIN, or would you get a 25 point deduct for the VIN and then the rest of the mechanical section be judged as if it were an L36 car?

Thanks,
Steve

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

I'll take a whack at it. The VIN derivative and machine code would get the expected deducts and the remainder of the engine components judged on their own merits irrespective of what was on the pad, and only against which engine option the owner specified.

If not, a blank pad would make it impossible to judge the remainder and a non-Corvette engine pad would automatically assign a penalty against each component as they could not possibly match up.

[Jack H.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

You handle it just like the Standard Deduction table in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual says.

If the casting date, number and configuration of the block pass scrutiny, you move on to the stamp pad.

There, you assign 25 points to the Flint/Tonawanda stamp sequence, 25 points to the St. Louis stamp sequence and 38 points to the broach marks and judge them individually. Note on early cars that lack a St. Louis VIN derivative stamp, the value of the Flint stamp increases to 50 points.

There should be no question here as the scoring rules are pretty clear and this IS an 'open book' test...

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

You handle it just like the Standard Deduction table in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual says.

If the casting date, number and configuration of the block pass scrutiny, you move on to the stamp pad.

There, you assign 25 points to the Flint/Tonawanda stamp sequence, 25 points to the St. Louis stamp sequence and 38 points to the broach marks and judge them individually. Note on early cars that lack a St. Louis VIN derivative stamp, the value of the Flint stamp increases to 50 points.

There should be no question here as the scoring rules are pretty clear and this IS an 'open book' test...

This 88 point total deduction also applies if the judges think the stamp and pad are NTP, even if the VIN matches, and the date, prefix and suffix codes match. This is a judgement call, and in my experience some judges think it a fake, while others say it is valid. This is the most controversial and lacking in substance judgement the judges make IMO. It is just personal preference.

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

This 88 point total deduction also applies if the judges think the stamp and pad are NTP, even if the VIN matches, and the date, prefix and suffix codes match. This is a judgement call, and in my experience some judges think it a fake, while others say it is valid. This is the most controversial and lacking in substance judgement the judges make IMO. It is just personal preference.

Nobody mentioned pad surface, NTFP or otherwise. Not relevant.

[Steven S.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Ok, so the owner is basically responsible for stating what the engine is supposed to be?

I appreciate the help, I'm real "green" yet with judging but I'm trying to learn!

Thanks,
Steve

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Ok, so the owner is basically responsible for stating what the engine is supposed to be?

I appreciate the help, I'm real "green" yet with judging but I'm trying to learn!

Thanks,
Steve

No, the car should speak for itself. You can claim anything you want, but the judges look at the numerals, letters, stamping and font style, and yes they look at the broach marks on the pad too, and make a judgement if the engine matches the car and is "original" to it. If you tell them it is an L72, but the numbers and letters don't match that, it is not. And on a '66, there are precious few ways to prove what the car had in it when it left the factory. And it has been my experience that big blocks on C2s and C3s get mucho more attention and scrutiny than small blocks (except FI).

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Ok, so the owner is basically responsible for stating what the engine is supposed to be?

Here's the link to the judging sheets where this is specified at the top.

https://www.ncrs.org/sinor/63-67%20Score%20Sheets/63-67%20Mchncl.pdf

https://www.ncrs.org/sinor/63-67%20Score%20Sheets/63-67%20Chassis.pdf

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Through all the judging that has been done to my two cars, no judge ever asked me what engine was in the car nor did I fill out anything on the sheets except my name and the VIN. They always told me what engine was in the car.

[Steven S.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

No, the car should speak for itself. You can claim anything you want, but the judges look at the numerals, letters, stamping and font style, and yes they look at the broach marks on the pad too, and make a judgement if the engine matches the car and is "original" to it. If you tell them it is an L72, but the numbers and letters don't match that, it is not. And on a '66, there are precious few ways to prove what the car had in it when it left the factory. And it has been my experience that big blocks on C2s and C3s get mucho more attention and scrutiny than small blocks (except FI).

My question isn't about determining if a car was a BB car or hipo small block car etc., but how a car that is presented as having a certain engine option is judged when all things are correct to to that model aside from the suffix code and the VIN, thats it.

Here's the link to the judging sheets where this is specified at the top.

https://www.ncrs.org/sinor/63-67%20Score%20Sheets/63-67%20Mchncl.pdf

https://www.ncrs.org/sinor/63-67%20S...%20Chassis.pdf

Michael, I'm sorry if this is obvious, but I'm assuming the owner is filling the engine code and horsepower info??

Just making sure I understand this right!

Thanks,
Steve

[Terry M.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

When you register the car for judging the registration forms ask for the car's horsepower. When you get to the meet and pick up the judging forms (filled out with the horsepower you put on the registration) you will be asked to sign the "green sheet" which will have the horsepower you put on the registration sheet. The paragraph you sign states in part that you are attesting to the horsepower and options of the car to the best of your knowledge. There is a space for you to declare exceptions you might have -- perhaps you have removed or added options or changed the horspower of the car. That space is where you are supposed to declare that.

So if your Corvette has been judged in the last 25 years you did tell the judges what the horsepower is and they have that information on the judging sheets you handed them to the judges. They shouldn't have to ask you, nor should you have to tell them -- you already have before you ever got to the event.

[Steven S.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Good explaination. I believe I have it all straight now!

Thanks,
Steve

[Michael J.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

My question isn't about determining if a car was a BB car or hipo small block car etc., but how a car that is presented as having a certain engine option is judged when all things are correct to to that model aside from the suffix code and the VIN, thats it.

OK, but as I said, I have never "presented" a car as anything before judging. Those HP and engine code spaces on the Chassis and Mechanical judging sheets were filled in by the judging team lead, not me. And at registration, I have only provided my name, address, miles driven to the event, year, body type, color, and the VIN, nothing else. Maybe different judges require different info, but I have been through many and they never required I "present" or claim anything about the engine.

[Michael W.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

Good explaination. I believe I have it all straight now!

Thanks,
Steve

Yes, Terry's got it right. Good luck with your car!

[Terry M.]

Re: Question regarding 1966 engine block judging scenario

OK, but as I said, I have never "presented" a car as anything before judging. Those HP and engine code spaces on the Chassis and Mechanical judging sheets were filled in by the judging team lead, not me. And at registration, I have only provided my name, address, miles driven to the event, year, body type, color, and the VIN, nothing else. Maybe different judges require different info, but I have been through many and they never required I "present" or claim anything about the engine.

Mike I am pretty sure the form also asks engine size and horsepower.