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69 Differential Help

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  • Brad H.
    Expired
    • January 26, 2009
    • 250

    69 Differential Help

    Guys,
    I have just had some fairly exstensivel restoration work done on my 69 350 coupe at the rear suspension. All of the components were removed, overhauled and restored to NCRS stanards of appearance, etc. The shop primarily does muscle cars, but has done several C-2 and C-3 Corvettes in the past few years. Everything was rebuilt or new: Trailing arms by Bairs, rebuilt spring, rebuilt half shafts - the works. The finished product looks fantastic, however.....

    On the test drive I noticed a whine in the differential primarily at highway speeds when the trottle is released in an unloaded condition. Also, I noticed a bumping sound at very low speed (less than 10mph) coming from the rear end of the car as well. (Naturally prior to this restoration work I had no noise or problems at all from the rear suspension other than cosmetc condition).

    This car uses a 3.08 Positrac unit which was sent out for rebuild using new bearings and a new clutch pak by this shop. The unit made no noise prior to the rebuild and in fact the rebuilder said the unit looked great inside.

    We jacked the car up in such a way to move the wheels, etc. We immediately noticed that the wheel could be rotated inboard and outboard almost an inch! The trailing arm wheel brgs do not appear to be the culprit. It seems tight and correct and when moving the wheel back and forth the whole trailing arm tries to move, not just the brg assy. When you face the wheel and grasp it at the top and bottom it will move in and out almost an inch back and forth and the differential side yokes move in and out almost 3/16" as you do this. I have done some work on standard rear ends but not Corvettes or independant suspension units. The way I understand the repair manual drawings, the side yokes should not be moving in and out and in fact are captured internally and should be shimmed to a specified clearance.

    So this is my question - should the side yokes on a 69 3.08 positrac rear end move in and out. I have a friend with a 66 and he is pretty sure his wheels will not rotate inboard and outboard like mine is doing. Can someone please shed some light on this? My inclination is that the differential needs to come out but I would really like some insight before I next talk to the shop.

    As always, thanks for your help in advance!!!
    Brad Hood
  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 31, 1988
    • 43198

    #2
    Re: 69 Differential Help

    Originally posted by Brad Hood (49930)
    Guys,
    I have just had some fairly exstensivel restoration work done on my 69 350 coupe at the rear suspension. All of the components were removed, overhauled and restored to NCRS stanards of appearance, etc. The shop primarily does muscle cars, but has done several C-2 and C-3 Corvettes in the past few years. Everything was rebuilt or new: Trailing arms by Bairs, rebuilt spring, rebuilt half shafts - the works. The finished product looks fantastic, however.....

    On the test drive I noticed a whine in the differential primarily at highway speeds when the trottle is released in an unloaded condition. Also, I noticed a bumping sound at very low speed (less than 10mph) coming from the rear end of the car as well. (Naturally prior to this restoration work I had no noise or problems at all from the rear suspension other than cosmetc condition).

    This car uses a 3.08 Positrac unit which was sent out for rebuild using new bearings and a new clutch pak by this shop. The unit made no noise prior to the rebuild and in fact the rebuilder said the unit looked great inside.

    We jacked the car up in such a way to move the wheels, etc. We immediately noticed that the wheel could be rotated inboard and outboard almost an inch! The trailing arm wheel brgs do not appear to be the culprit. It seems tight and correct and when moving the wheel back and forth the whole trailing arm tries to move, not just the brg assy. When you face the wheel and grasp it at the top and bottom it will move in and out almost an inch back and forth and the differential side yokes move in and out almost 3/16" as you do this. I have done some work on standard rear ends but not Corvettes or independant suspension units. The way I understand the repair manual drawings, the side yokes should not be moving in and out and in fact are captured internally and should be shimmed to a specified clearance.

    So this is my question - should the side yokes on a 69 3.08 positrac rear end move in and out. I have a friend with a 66 and he is pretty sure his wheels will not rotate inboard and outboard like mine is doing. Can someone please shed some light on this? My inclination is that the differential needs to come out but I would really like some insight before I next talk to the shop.

    As always, thanks for your help in advance!!!
    Brad Hood
    Brad------


    The side yokes should not have end play of more than 1/16" and, preferably, less.
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley

    Comment

    • Brad H.
      Expired
      • January 26, 2009
      • 250

      #3
      Re: 69 Differential Help

      Thanks Joe,
      I'm trying to figure out what has gone astray here. Certainly its not normal to be able to rock the wheel/tire assy back and forth. It takes some effort to rock the wheel back and forth and you can see the trailing arm basically rotating with the wheel within the limits of the front trailing arm bushing/bolt. I assume that the side yokes are supposed to be captured inside the differential so that when the half shafts are all bolted in position it would not be possible to rock the wheel except for possibly a minute amount. If this assumption is correct, I just can not figure out what the differential rebuilder may have done or not done to allow this to happen. What captures the side yokes internally? The drawing looks like a snap ring of some kind. Pardon my stupidity with this thing, and I surely appreciate your thoughts.
      Brad

      Comment

      • Joe L.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • January 31, 1988
        • 43198

        #4
        Re: 69 Differential Help

        Originally posted by Brad Hood (49930)
        Thanks Joe,
        I'm trying to figure out what has gone astray here. Certainly its not normal to be able to rock the wheel/tire assy back and forth. It takes some effort to rock the wheel back and forth and you can see the trailing arm basically rotating with the wheel within the limits of the front trailing arm bushing/bolt. I assume that the side yokes are supposed to be captured inside the differential so that when the half shafts are all bolted in position it would not be possible to rock the wheel except for possibly a minute amount. If this assumption is correct, I just can not figure out what the differential rebuilder may have done or not done to allow this to happen. What captures the side yokes internally? The drawing looks like a snap ring of some kind. Pardon my stupidity with this thing, and I surely appreciate your thoughts.
        Brad
        Brad------


        A snap ring is, indeed, what retains the yoke and controls its OUTWARD motion. The inner end of the stub axle is supposed to be in very close proximity to the differential center pin. Consequently, the total end play should be exactly equal to the clearance between the center pin and the end of the stub axle with the axle at the outward limit of travel. This should be less than 1/16" in the new condition.

        Were the stub axles replaced when the overhaul was done?
        In Appreciation of John Hinckley

        Comment

        • Brad H.
          Expired
          • January 26, 2009
          • 250

          #5
          Re: 69 Differential Help

          Joe,
          I'm not sure which parts are correctly called the stub axles as my manual is at the office. The side yokes were not replaced but the half shaft, I call them, were replaced with overhauled units from Ikerds. I hope I'm answering your question.
          Thanks again,
          Brad

          Comment

          • Brad H.
            Expired
            • January 26, 2009
            • 250

            #6
            Re: 69 Differential Help

            Joe,
            I think you are referring to the what I call the side yokes and and I understand what you are saying. I take it then that you should not be able to face the wheel and rock it inboard and outboard. Is that correct?
            I'm sorry for all the questions but I really do appreciate your ideas.
            Thanks,
            Brad

            Comment

            • Joe L.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • January 31, 1988
              • 43198

              #7
              Re: 69 Differential Help

              Originally posted by Brad Hood (49930)
              Joe,
              I think you are referring to the what I call the side yokes and and I understand what you are saying. I take it then that you should not be able to face the wheel and rock it inboard and outboard. Is that correct?
              I'm sorry for all the questions but I really do appreciate your ideas.
              Thanks,
              Brad

              Brad-----

              The stub axles, sometimes called the yoke axles, are the short axles which install into the differential carrier. The u-joint on the inner end of the half shaft attaches to the yoke on the stub axle.

              Grasping the wheel, there should be very little in-and-out motion possible.
              In Appreciation of John Hinckley

              Comment

              • Gary R.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • March 31, 1989
                • 1796

                #8
                Re: 69 Differential Help

                Brad,
                I can offer some thoughts, I do custom vette diffs so I have had my hands into a few of them.

                If new gears were installed then the noise could be a result of the new gears but usually its a pattern setup issue. If the original gears were reused then they should be as you had them.

                The side yoke play can be a result of:
                1- worn yokes
                2-posi setup
                3-posi case shaft hole wear.
                Replacing yokes alone with Lonestar rebuilt yokes,which everyone uses, will not usually cut the endplay down much.

                When I rebuild a diff I set them up to 005-010" endplay max.No posi springs, and setup the gears by pattern only. I suspect a typical rebuilt diff on the market today is not built to the same level, as you might have found out.

                040-050 endplay is equal to a car with about 50k miles, although I've reused many of the early(63-73) yokes after I tuned the posi.

                If interested you can find a lot of pictures of this on Digital corvettes to help you out. The noise is not going to settle in, if you have it now you will have it forever. Again some new gear sets are not the best to setup and take a LOT of time to do, if rushed it could be part of the problem. Used gears sets should be set up to the same lash and pattern as they were before disassembly.

                If you have specific questions let me know

                Good luck.

                Comment

                • Michael W.
                  Expired
                  • March 31, 1997
                  • 4290

                  #9
                  Re: 69 Differential Help

                  Brad,

                  The yokes should minimal clearance as Joe and Gary have confirmed. The existence of 3/16" play is not related to the whine however.

                  Comment

                  • Domenic T.
                    Expired
                    • January 28, 2010
                    • 2452

                    #10
                    Re: 69 Differential Help

                    Isit sounds like the clip on the yoke is not there if it is moving in and out as much as you say.

                    DOM

                    Comment

                    • Gary R.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • March 31, 1989
                      • 1796

                      #11
                      Re: 69 Differential Help

                      Maybe this will help.
                      Here is the common snap ring used on these cars from 63-82. C clips are larger and used on all the other GM axles.


                      It is possible the clip fell off but if this happens with a rebuilt diff then either the clip was not fully seated or it was left off. On a used diff, particularly the 74-79's the yokes were soft and wore out very fast,many times down to the clip and beyond, some hitting the housing (carrier) and damaging it.

                      Here is a stock diff with posi. Notice the springs and plates and the cross shaft the yoke ends ride against.


                      Here is a posi case that had a sloppy side hole for the cross shaft. This allowed the yokes to walk in/out .125",the posi set up was the stock version which was not setup correct but the 40 year old yokes were fine, in fact I had to face grind them to dial in 005 endplay. This case I bored and fit with a 12 bolt shaft and spiders,making it stronger then any stock case setup.



                      Hope this helps with the understanding of the unit.

                      Comment

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