How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

[Tom P.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

----------------------------, one of the judges (who was biased since he had a P.O.S. Pace Car himself, and envied my 63 miles, no previous owner p.c.) tried to tell me that my block wasn't original. ---------------------------------

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This type of person/example is just ONE of the SPECIFIC reasons why I beat up on NCRS every chance I get. The organization has definitely come a long way, but it still has a long way to go, and more internal policing is still needed to get rid of the old guard mentality!

[Jim L.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

When I Top Flighted a '78 Pace Car back in 2005, one of the judges ..... tried to tell me that my block wasn't original.

This is deja vu, all over again.

The last time I had my original engine '60 fuelie judged, a self-aggrandizing judge declared the engine in my car to be a re-stamp. It's not.

That was 20 years ago. I haven't felt the need for a judge's opinion since.

Jim

[Michael W.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

When I Top Flighted a '78 Pace Car back in 2005, one of the judges (who was biased since he had a P.O.S. Pace Car himself, and envied my 63 miles, no previous owner p.c.) tried to tell me that my block wasn't original.

After I controlled the urge to insert him into my tail pipe (and I Top Flighted in spite of his opinion), I walked over to Dave McClellan, who was at the NCRS event in Atlantic City. I asked him if it was possible for my block to have been dated outside of the (3 month?) period that NCRS considers acceptable, prior to the build date of the car.

Mr. McClellan told me that it certainly was acceptable that a 350 block could be laying around, and installed at a later time, because "they were all over the place" (in his words) in multiple locations back then. He mentioned that Testing and Engineering would also take blocks for quality control, and place them back in inventory, which would cause the engine block to be dated far earlier than the build date of the Corvette. This "expert" opinion satisfied me.

Both the judge in question and you are apparently not familiar with the written rules and guidelines within the NCRS. The team leader or judging chairman (on site during the meet) are there to assist in such disputes, all to be carried out in a gentlemanly fashion. Sounds like this opportunity was not taken advantage of.

Don't judge the whole organization by one bad apple.

[John H.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Were the parts transported from Saginaw to Flint by truck or by rail (I have no clue, since I've never been in the area)?

Tom -

GM had a captive internal truck fleet that ran castings from the Saginaw Foundry to Flint V-8 24 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week; it was about 45 minutes one way, and the stream of trucks was continuous.

[Tom P.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Don't judge the whole organization by one bad apple.

My judgements have been based on multiple bad apples---------beginning with the Nationals in St. Louis in 1981!

[Steven B.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

John, in additon to blocks what parts were cast at that facility?

Thanks!

Steve

[Michael W.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

My judgements have been based on multiple bad apples---------beginning with the Nationals in St. Louis in 1981!

Bound to be a few with 15,000 members. I don't let one or two d*ckheads ruin my day.

[Kenneth L.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Both the judge in question and you are apparently not familiar with the written rules and guidelines within the NCRS. The team leader or judging chairman (on site during the meet) are there to assist in such disputes, all to be carried out in a gentlemanly fashion. Sounds like this opportunity was not taken advantage of.

Don't judge the whole organization by one bad apple.

I was VERY familiar with the rules and guidelines. First this was a Chapter NCRS flighting event. The Chairman was present and held firm on the NCRS block casting number guidelines, saying that he couldn't (or wouldn't) override that one judges decision. It was done is a very gentlemanly fashion (without slapping each other in the face with lace hankies or bringing out the dueling pistols). The car was strong enough to Top Flight anyway, because all of the other judges were blown away by this time capsule car that just came out of the original selling dealer's showroom a few weeks prior (also featured in Corvette Enthusiast magazine since).

Right after this experience, I had numerous conversations with the National Chairman for this class judging (including in person at a National NCRS flight judging later in Orlando), who was personally familiar with the particular bozo chapter judge that I experienced. He told me about the P.O.S. similar cars that he had, and that he was a little over zealous. I told him that the moron came up with his own theory that my block had probably been replaced by the dealer (who also told me that he was nuts) early on because the cam got wiped! He further explained that this was because of "soft cam problems" back around that time, and rather than just replace the cam, they probably replaced my entire short block. Hmmm. Very imaginative. Especially since I bought the freakin pace car with only 63 miles on the odometer right out of the showroom. So I guess the cam just went at what.... 25 miles?! 50 miles?! This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my 35 years in the corvette hobby!

I'm a purist, growing up with my brother's original one owner (Top Flight) '66 big block convertible, which he still owns. And we've both encountered many know it all/ no nothings at shows. But they shouldn't be judges at anything beyond the local GTO club show level. A documented mistake like that can (as I said at the time of this flub up) "kill the value of a car", not to mention make the owner of a legitimate bench mark car totally insane. Fortunately, I placed my lace hankie under my powered wig and struted off in the opposite direction, to coverse with Dave McClellan, who gave me reassurance that there were exceptions (which NCRS does not recognize). And that is the biggest complaint that I've heard from owners of Corvettes who will not subject themselves to the painful experience of NCRS judging ever again.

[Michael W.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

it was possible for my block to have been dated outside of the (3 month?) period that NCRS considers acceptable, prior to the build date of the car.

I was VERY familiar with the rules and guidelines.

NCRS guidelines clearly state that up to six months is within factory production variation albeit very unusual. Most engines are typically one month or less. If yours was beyond the six months then this falls into something that 'might just possibly ' exist, but is way outside of the published guidelines and judging rules. If you were aware of this quirk prior to the meet, then it should not have come as a surprise that a judge would have some hesitation over it. What documentation would the judge have in hand that acknowledges that some Pace Cars, or any '78 had engine case casting dates beyond the six months? I know of none. As Terry M has stated many times, where do you draw the line anyway?

The goal of Flight Judging is to be awarded for presenting a car that is typical of factory production, not seek certification and authentication for eventual financial gain. Sounds like you showed up at a football game with a baseball bat and hockey puck. If you're looking for authentication of factory originality, Bowtie would be a more suitable category.

You can have the car judged as many times as you want, maybe a different judge at a different meet would see the unusual circumstances of your car differently. Good luck.

[Kenneth L.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

The goal of Flight Judging is to be awarded for presenting a car that is typical of factory production, not seek certification and authentication for eventual financial gain. Sounds like you showed up at a football game with a baseball bat and hockey puck. If you're looking for authentication of factory originality, Bowtie would be a more suitable category.

You can have the car judged as many times as you want, maybe a different judge at a different meet would see the unusual circumstances of your car differently. Good luck.

Many believe that NCRS is too anal and that there is no gray, just black & white. Many of the elite in the organization would make great government UFO "Investigators". If its not in that book, it never existed. Period. And why is that every time the value of a Corvette is mentioned, there are those who act as though it doesn't mean a thing? Who's kidding who? We all want to know what are cars are worth and like our homes, want them to be worth as much as possible (except in the case of tax asessments!)

Some of us are honest enough to express our passion for the cars, as well as keeping in mind the market value of the cars. Maybe those with inhereted money, or the independently wealthy, can sit in the front row at Barrett Jackson and bid on cars all day long. But for the majority of us, the value DOES matter. It's a significant investment that's well thought out. In the case of the '78 Pace Car (which I sold in 2007, to a collector out of state), I made a 50% profit on it, but I was lucky, since their values are flat. Having Top Flight certification serves a dual purpose for many OWNERS - confirmation of originality AND increasing the value of the car down the road. If we pay the fee, our motives shouldn't be questioned by any NCRS official. It's their knowledge and discretion that should be questioned at times, because so much is at stake.

If anyone can tell me what documentation ever existed for an individual engine block, or any other component for that matter, it might help many of us who have had, or currently have, very unusual exceptions (according to NCRS "experts").

I can tell you that in 1985 I sold a one of a kind set of NOS dash control knob bezels (for radio and heater), in the original GM parts boxes for a '66 Corvette to M.F. Dobbins at Carlisle (who I knew personally). The "chromed" raised portions were reversed. Dobbins told me that he had never seen anything like this and (quote) they "were very unusual". Maybe they were prototypes, or goofs, but for $100, I make him a very happy guy (who said that he might publish them in a future mid year Facts Book). Now what if these were actuallly installed on my '66 427/425 Corvette at the time and I had it judged? Loss of points? Probably.

How many blocks did Flint cast in a day? PLENTY! And they were everywhere, with no documentation on them. Just ask a former Chief Engineer for GM.

[Michael W.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Having Top Flight certification serves a dual purpose for many OWNERS - confirmation of originality AND increasing the value of the car down the road. If we pay the fee, our motives shouldn't be questioned by any NCRS official. It's their knowledge and discretion that should be questioned at times, because so much is at stake.

Ouch. Makes me wonder why I bother volunteering to judge.

[Mark G.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Steven -

Chevrolet Saginaw Grey Iron in '65 made 206 separate part numbers. Alphabetically from, body-brake to weight-harm. bal. During the '60's all different castings include, cylinder & cases (12), cylinder heads (13), exhaust manifolds (21). These were a mixture of 4, 6, and 8 cylinder parts.

The Chevrolet Grey Iron Foundry (GIF) and Chevrolet Nodular Iron Foundry (NIF), located in Saginaw were selected to produce certain castings because of the volume required. Nodular made cranks, carriers, cases, flywheels, calipers, and knuckles. I have part lists from '56 to '65 and eventually they could be in the "Restorer"; but some lists are eight pages.

[Cecil L.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Steven -

Chevrolet Saginaw Grey Iron in '65 made 206 separate part numbers. Alphabetically from, body-brake to weight-harm. bal. During the '60's all different castings include, cylinder & cases (12), cylinder heads (13), exhaust manifolds (21). These were a mixture of 4, 6, and 8 cylinder parts.

The Chevrolet Grey Iron Foundry (GIF) and Chevrolet Nodular Iron Foundry (NIF), located in Saginaw were selected to produce certain castings because of the volume required. Nodular made cranks, carriers, cases, flywheels, calipers, and knuckles. I have part lists from '56 to '65 and eventually they could be in the "Restorer"; but some lists are eight pages.

Mark,
Can you expound on the Experimental Foundry completed in 62? Would this be considered the Central Foundy Division (CFD)?
I have been researching the W engine for a while and the change of engine castings from Tonawanda to CFD occurred in 62 along with the appearance of the casting clock, julian casting dates, an X on the front of the block and Armasteel main caps. The engines were still assembled at Tonawanda, but where exactly was the Experimental Foundry and the Central Foundry Division and why did they shift casting from New York to CFD yet still send the parts to New York for assembly. All these changes seem to coincide with the beginning of nodular iron castings in 62.

[Mark G.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Cecil -



The Chevrolet foundries were Grey Iron, Nodular Iron, Tonawanda, and St. Catharines Ont. Some of the other car divisions had foundries; Central Foundry Division (CFD) was somewhat independent. They cast parts for Delco, Transmission, Gear & Axle, etc. CFC did make Armasteel castings that needed to be heat treated that added to cost. The CFD plants include Defiance OH., Bedford In., Danville, IL. and Malleable Iron in Saginaw.



Mark

[Steven B.]

Re: How many blocks did Flint cast in a day?

Steven -

Chevrolet Saginaw Grey Iron in '65 made 206 separate part numbers. Alphabetically from, body-brake to weight-harm. bal. During the '60's all different castings include, cylinder & cases (12), cylinder heads (13), exhaust manifolds (21). These were a mixture of 4, 6, and 8 cylinder parts.

The Chevrolet Grey Iron Foundry (GIF) and Chevrolet Nodular Iron Foundry (NIF), located in Saginaw were selected to produce certain castings because of the volume required. Nodular made cranks, carriers, cases, flywheels, calipers, and knuckles. I have part lists from '56 to '65 and eventually they could be in the "Restorer"; but some lists are eight pages.

Mark, your info. would be a valuable resource in book form.

Thanks!

Steve