Ethanol

[Jim W.]

Re: Ethanol

That's not entirely true. Within the last 60 days, the EPA has become quite active in pushing to increase the ethanol blend limit from 10% to 15%, using the same old junk-science logic that got us to 10%. Expect to see a notice of proposed rulemaking in the Federal Register in the near future. The corn lobby and the enviroweenies will love it, and the politicians will seize on it as one more "green" thing to support that will get them re-elected.

Well I plead no contest as my information from the oil companies who replied to me was about a year ago. But I find it ironic that the EPA wants to increase the 'Alcohol'/Ethanol' content in pump gasoline in a way to achieve cleaner air quality, But the use of 'Ethanol' which is going to push down the MPG of any internal combustion automobile engine. Which they are demanding increased MPG with new CAFE ratings?. I don't understand how you want the continued use of Alcohol/ethanol in gasoline and that new automobiles MPG is going to suffer, yet they want better MPG out of those very same new cars? I have to question their true goals ?. But with our government I always am amazed by their actions no matter how slight. I wonder what effect 15% ethanol in fuel is going to affect our present automobiles.

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol

Well, I can't say this answer is the actual truth, but according to lawyer friends of mine, it's because we have another name for 100% ethanol....

We call it MOONSHINE!

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol

Down in Brazil, the aftermarket folks sold 'kits' to convert your non-flex fuel vehicle to flex fuel compatible operation. The kit consisted ONLY of and electronics module (rifle shot at the target vehicle) to 'fool' the on-board computer into thinking it was burning actual gasoline.

They apparently considered the SS & alcohol compatible components of the flex-fuel tank-to-engine system to be 'icing on the cake' issues that could be ignored with reasonable due diligence in periodic inspection(s).

For a while, these 'kits' were offered for sale in the US, but I haven't seen anyone touting them recently. I guess if it's an older car/truck and you KNOW your ownership interval is likely to be limited, what the heck, why not burn E85 and let the next guy worry about the long term maintenance consequences of not having a fully compatible fuel system?

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol

John is right about the reason for the limit to E85 in the USA. I wouldn't try to drink the alcohol they put in gasoline. It is the non drinkable kind. Now you guys who know the difference between ethanol and methanol can go on and on. I don't care.

I remember the 'shine I had while in the military (remember we were protecting you -- when we weren't higher than a kite ) tasted a lot like kerosene smelled. Maybe there was a mix up someplace. But I haven't gone blind yet -- close but not yet.

[John H.]

Re: Ethanol

Jack -

They don't have much snow or below-zero cold-start issues in Brazil .

Jack -

Quoting from a 2010 Chrysler owner's manual for an E85-capable vehicle:

"The characteristics of E-85 fuel make it unsuitable for use when ambient temperatures fall below 0*F. In the range between 0*F and 32*F, you may experience an increase in the time it takes for your engine to start, and a deterioration in driveability (sags and/or hesitations) until the engine is fully warmed up.

Because E-85 fuel contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, you will experience an increase in fuel consumption. You can expect your miles per gallon and your driving range to decrease by about 30% compared to gasoline operation."

[William C.]

Re: Ethanol

I can tell you relative to Brazil, that I just missed having to make a business trip there in the mid 90's because open had started building one of the cars they had in Europe in a plant in Brazil for the local market. The Opel boys didn't upgrade the fuel systems for the local alcohol content, and new cars were going dead after a short time in service. Had to be an electrical problem, right? Fortunately, before I got the final orders to go and help troubleshoot the electrical end of the problem, they took a couple of cars apart and found dissolved fuel system parts, upgraded the rubber parts, and I no longer had to make the trip! Too bad, I always wanted a company paid trip to Rio!

[James G.]

Re: Ethanol

Just returned from 5425 mile driving tour from California thru AZ., Texas, Louisanna, Alabama, MI, Kentucky, Indiana, Chicago, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, Nevada and home.

Gas mileage on our 2006 Dodge 3.8 Caravan ranged from 19.06 mpg to 24.25 mpg depending on where we were. Generally, 21 to 22 at 75mph. Over 80, the mileage went way doun. I used cruise all the time except in heavy traffic.

Idle speed on heavy ethanol concentrations, was about 150-200 RPM less than 'real' gasoline. Worst mileage was in midwest "ethanol corn fed" areas.

Avg. Price per gallon was between 2.44 per gal and 3.19 per gal. Average was closer to 2.75-2.79.

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol

That makes sense...

I once looked at one of the DIY conversion kits and, if memory serves, it had a flip-switch for extreme cold weather operation that was described in the literature as a 'start-up assist'...

On the 30% reduction in mileage, that makes sense. I have a fuzzy recollection from chemistry class that the native energy content of gasoline was approximately 25 K-Cal/mole while alcohol ran roughly 18 K-Cal/mole. Hey, that's a 28% loss which is RIGHT ON with the Chrysler info you quote!

But, our green friends don't like flex fuel. Questioning them more closely, I found TWO reasons:

(1) They're been IMPRINTED with MPG and use it as a universal yardstick. Screw the fact that E85 has an almost ZERO carbon footprint... Flex fuel vehicles get LOUSY mileage compared to their beloved centerpiece (Toyota Prius).

(2) Those who are intelligent enough to understand the carbon foot print argument counter with something along these lines--"studies have shown that flex-fuel owners primarily run the vehicles on gasoline instead of E85"

On #2, gee I wonder why? Could it be that even with an environmental leaning, most folks are rationally economic and a roughly 10% decrease in fuel price for E85 vs. conventional gasoline doesn't CUT IT????

I ran calculations once and argued that the equivalent carbon footprint of a Suburban SB running E85 was equivalent to a Prius getting 124 MPG. Further, all the tree huggers should 'scrap' their Toyota hybrids, go buy a Suburban, pay the extra $$$ for E85 to sleep even better at night!!!

Yeah, you'll be AMAZED to know my 'counter' was greeted with universal boo's...

[Valeria H.]

Re: Ethanol

I feel secure that finially the people on this forum are discussing the problems that ethanol poses to all and any vehicle being driven especially the vintage and FI cars.

This has been a great discussion on the negative effects of ethanol and the possible culprits of why we are forced to consume this vile product that results in a far less gas mileage than pure gas.

I spoke with several people who own their own personal airplains today and they had absolutely nothing good to say about ethanol and are fearing the day that avgas may be a thing of the past.

Again, I will reiterate my earlier statement, there is a GOOD reason airplanes/Jets do not use ethanol.

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol

And in Brazil, you can buy up to 100% ethanol fuel. Anyone know why we limit our flex-fuel mixture to 85% max instead of offering pure ethanol at the pump?

I think it has to do with cold starting. Brazil is in tropics.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol

I think it has to do with cold starting. Brazil is in tropics.

Duke

if ethanol is any where close to methanol anything below 55 degrees you need a shot of gasoline to fire up the engine. we had to do this when we ran methanol in our race car engines. i guess the methanol will not vaporize when cold and after the engine warms up it fire right up.

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol

"I think it has to do with cold starting. Brazil is in tropics."

That's true for the most part, but NOT universally true, Duke. You can go south (there's a LOT of Brazil) and when you get to, say, Porto Alegre, you're about on the border to Uruguay/Argentina in the 'pampas' region. That's technically NOT the tropics.

We're talking 30-31 degrees south, essentially the equivalent of Texas, New Mexico where you can/do encounter 'crisp' weather, especially when altitude factors in...

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethanol

Jack,

Coincidentally, I was on assignment at the airport in Porto Alegre some years ago for a few weeks during their winter. Quite a few of the guys had to pop their hoods and use a squirt bottle of what I presume was gasoline down the intake to get their engines running first thing in the morning. They figured it was worth it, given the cost savings. These were mainly older, carburated cars. Newer FI engines were not so finicky.

Part of the reason for my being there was to learn more about their fleet of piston aircraft than had been operating for an extended period on a rough equivalent of E10. Again, the cost differential has made it worth the effort of building or converting aircraft to operate efficiently and safely on ethanol. Discussions were held about the possibilities of converting aircraft equipped with my company's engines (gas turbines or 'jets') but the decrease in effective range, cost of obtaining a local STC , and the more reasonable cost of Jet A1 vs E10 wiped out any advantages.

Nice trip nonetheless.

There are ongoing efforts to certify additional US registered aircraft for E10 usage, I believe an STC has been issued for the Cessna 180 and 182 models, possibly more.

Because the private aviation market is minuscule as compared to the automotive market and the cost of conversion so high, this segment has been spared the meddling of the do-gooder greenies and politicians. So far.

[Michael G.]

Re: Ethanol

I knew my fuelies didn't like alcohol, but I just got towed in from the middle of the lake 'cause they tell me that the ethanol in the local marina's "gas" ate some plastic float in my Mercury engine....

Shouldn't we have choice of whether we want to burn this crap?

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol

I knew my fuelies didn't like alcohol, but I just got towed in from the middle of the lake 'cause they tell me that the ethanol in the local marina's "gas" ate some plastic float in my Mercury engine....

Shouldn't we have choice of whether we want to burn this crap?

be glad you don't have fiberglass fuel tanks as that is a REAL big problem. the oil companies have made the calculation that if we can cut every ones MPG by 10% we can sell 10% more gasoline. it has nothing to do with buying less oil from the middle east no matter what GM or the govt tells you.