Ethanol

[Terry M.]

I live in NE Pa. and until this past weekend I have been able to purchase gasoline free of ethanol. This past weekend however I could not find any stations without 10% ethanol added. I have a 60, 270 hp car. I am curious as to what other owners are doing in the same predicament. I have read some pretty negative things about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems in older cars. Any experience and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol

Two con's, one pro and a caveat...

Con 1, alcohol blended into the fuel can be 'corrosive' to some fuel system components that weren't specifically designed to handle alcohol (various forms of rubber/plastic).

Con 2, alcohol blends can exhibit a slightly lower boiling point than pure gasoline. This can lead to percolation in a carb's fuel bowl that's annoying.

Pro 1, intrinsically alcohol has higher octane characteristics than traditional gasoline (105 area) which is why some who race choose to use alcohol as their fuel on the track.

Last, and this goes without saying, there's less intrinsic energy content to alcohol than gasoline. So, your fuel mileage should drop in lock-step to the amount of gasoline displaced in the fuel by the addition of alcohol.

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol

Ethanol blends don't have higher octane because the base stock gasoline blended for ethanol addition has less, so the resulting blend is the same as straight gasoline without ethanol. So regular unleaded is still 87 PON with or without ethanol in most parts of the country. Higher altitudes may only be 85 or 86 because the octane requirement goes down with increasing altitude.

Similarly for higher octane "premium" gasoline.

Ten percent by volume "gasohol" has about 3 percent less energy, so fuel consumption will usually go up by 3 percent, which is one MPG on a 33 MPG car.

Most people won't be able to measure the difference, but it's there.

Duke

[Valeria H.]

Re: Ethanol

I live in NE Pa. and until this past weekend I have been able to purchase gasoline free of ethanol. This past weekend however I could not find any stations without 10% ethanol added. I have a 60, 270 hp car. I am curious as to what other owners are doing in the same predicament. I have read some pretty negative things about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems in older cars. Any experience and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Terry, You have been fortunate up until now to be privy to gasoline without ethanol. You have opened up a "can of worms" posing this question on this forum!

Attitudes about this subject seem to exceed the norm. Many will not pose their opinion on this subject because they have been beaten back. I really think we do not know the long term effects of ethanol on these old vintage engines. There are so many more working parts on these engines than the ones manufactured today, where ethanol may take a negative toll. Time will tell.

I await other responses.

PS: There is a really good reason that airplanes only fly on ethanol free gasoline.

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethanol

If it gives you comfort, I've been using E10 for about 20 years on my car with no ill effects. My car is stored for 5-6 months per year over the Canadian winter.

The usual complaints are tendencies to vapour lock, percolate gas in the carb or gum up during storage. I suffer none of these issues and sometimes wonder about the validity of blame being laid upon ethanol. On the other hand, FI cars have a more acute problem with some recent posts providing hard evidence of the issue and suggested workarounds.

It's certainly not better than pure gas, but not the evil demon some would have you believe.

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol

If you have any original rubber hoses in your fuel system (tank to fuel line, or chassis fuel line to fuel pump) you would be wise to be proactive and replace them with modern fuel hose. The modern stuff (and there is an SAE number for the modern stuff that should be imprinted on the line) is more resistant to the alcohol that the old fuel lines. This could, in a worst-case scenario, become a safety issue if ignored.

My personal experience with a number of relatively modern cars is that 10% alcohol in the fuel will reduce my mileage more than what Duke has quoted. I am between 5 and 10% less mileage with alcohol laced fuel. It has been a long time since I saw pure gasoline, however. Here in the Midwest the corn lobby, thanks to generous political contributions from ADM, Monsanto and the like, has bought every politician so we have had alcohol for years.

I don't know how much altitude Missouri has, but I couldn't find anything higher than 91 octane in that state when we had the National in St Louis a couple of years ago.

[Joe C.]

Re: Ethanol

I live in NE Pa. and until this past weekend I have been able to purchase gasoline free of ethanol. This past weekend however I could not find any stations without 10% ethanol added. I have a 60, 270 hp car. I am curious as to what other owners are doing in the same predicament. I have read some pretty negative things about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems in older cars. Any experience and/or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I have posted this before.
One of these might be convenient for you:

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=PA

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol

Thanks so much to everyone who gave imput and opinions!

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol

If you have any original rubber hoses in your fuel system (tank to fuel line, or chassis fuel line to fuel pump) you would be wise to be proactive and replace them with modern fuel hose. The modern stuff (and there is an SAE number for the modern stuff that should be imprinted on the line) is more resistant to the alcohol that the old fuel lines. This could, in a worst-case scenario, become a safety issue if ignored.

My personal experience with a number of relatively modern cars is that 10% alcohol in the fuel will reduce my mileage more than what Duke has quoted. I am between 5 and 10% less mileage with alcohol laced fuel. It has been a long time since I saw pure gasoline, however. Here in the Midwest the corn lobby, thanks to generous political contributions from ADM, Monsanto and the like, has bought every politician so we have had alcohol for years.

I don't know how much altitude Missouri has, but I couldn't find anything higher than 91 octane in that state when we had the National in St Louis a couple of years ago.

mrs clems impala used to pull close to 30 MPG going to Fla. but since the mixed fuel the best it will do is 27 MPG driving the same roads.

[Jim L.]

Re: Ethanol

My personal experience with a number of relatively modern cars is that 10% alcohol in the fuel will reduce my mileage more than what Duke has quoted. I am between 5 and 10% less mileage with alcohol laced fuel.

This matches my experience back when ethanol was first being added to Kalifornia fuel.... about a 10% drop in fuel mileage. The difference was immediately apparent to me because I was keeping accurate fuel usage logs at the time.

Jim

[Richard M.]

Re: Ethanol

Ten percent by volume "gasohol" has about 3 percent less energy, so fuel consumption will usually go up by 3 percent, which is one MPG on a 33 MPG car.

Most people won't be able to measure the difference, but it's there.

Duke

...... it's about (edit:10%)... in my case, around 3 to 4 MPG difference. I understand there is no way for the average consumer to know what exactly what percentage of ethanol at the pump is, so this may be inaccurate.....but I certainly could see a difference on my '07 base C6, AT by observation.

Pre-ethanol days, on nice flat Florida highways, cruise set at 70mph, 1700 rpm(in 6th gear of course), average was 34+ MPG. Now with ethanol, same driving conditions, I'm anywhere between 30 to 32 MPG. I notice it varies every time I get gas at different stations, so the ethanol amount must fluctuate quite a bit place to place........ with noticeable results in my case.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: Ethanol

If it gives you comfort, I've been using E10 for about 20 years on my car with no ill effects. My car is stored for 5-6 months per year over the Canadian winter.

The usual complaints are tendencies to vapour lock, percolate gas in the carb or gum up during storage. I suffer none of these issues and sometimes wonder about the validity of blame being laid upon ethanol. On the other hand, FI cars have a more acute problem with some recent posts providing hard evidence of the issue and suggested workarounds.

It's certainly not better than pure gas, but not the evil demon some would have you believe.

Michael, Please don't consider my reply as a rebuttal or argumentative in any way. It just sparked a bit of a nerve in me about this situation. Not sure if you've heard of this so it may give you more information than you knew before.......

People here in Florida have been stranded many miles offshore in their power boats when their in-hull fiberglass fuel tanks became a mess of jellied resin and blocked their fuel system. It can cost thousands of dollars to just get a tow back into port. I can't imagine(well maybe I can), if fuel eventually penetrated the tank and dripped into the bilges, and upon hitting the starter button what would happen!

And then the cost of replacing the tanks? Typically, large yacht manufacturers years ago would lay up the tanks directly between the hull frames, then build the decks and the rest of the superstructure right over them. Now how would the tanks be replaced with aluminum units? I have heard of some who have had to scrap their boats because the cost was prohibitive.

2 years ago a good friend and his wife with his 61 fuelie stopped to meet my wife and I in my 59 to go to a car show. When I got there he had the hood open and fuel was leaking out of the fuelie pump. It was the old rubber seal. We drove my 59 to his house to get replacement viton seals and fixed the leak. I just shriek at the "what-ifs?"

Also ask a few here with 63 Z06 big-tankers.......the fiberglass tanks are literally getting "unglued"!

So I just cannot feel good about the fact that we all had to find out about the effect the way we have with no warnings of any kind. IMO.........Quite Strongly.........Fuel companies totally ignored the potential hazards and forthcomings of ethanol use.

Rich

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol

...... it's about (edit:10%)... in my case, around 3 to 4 MPG difference. I understand there is no way for the average consumer to know what exactly what percentage of ethanol at the pump is, so this may be inaccurate.....but I certainly could see a difference on my '07 base C6, AT by observation.

Pre-ethanol days, on nice flat Florida highways, cruise set at 70mph, 1700 rpm(in 6th gear of course), average was 34+ MPG. Now with ethanol, same driving conditions, I'm anywhere between 30 to 32 MPG. I notice it varies every time I get gas at different stations, so the ethanol amount must fluctuate quite a bit place to place........ with noticeable results in my case.

Rich

I doubt if it's the ethanol content that varies, but variability in driving conditions and measurement error. The 3 percent reduction in fuel economy with 10 percent by volume ethanol is based on lab testing where conditions can be controlled.

Ten percent by volume is the current EPA ethanol content limit for gasoline, but some areas have less and the amount of ethanol may vary with the season.

Duke

[Michael W.]

Re: Ethanol

Michael, Please don't consider my reply as a rebuttal or argumentative in any way. It just sparked a bit of a nerve in me about this situation. Not sure if you've heard of this so it may give you more information than you knew before.......


Rich

No offense taken, it's all good discussion in my mind. I've heard the above before and suppose that if this was a boat owners site or homebuilt aircraft site my responses would be quite different. I did make mention of FI cars above and take your thoughts regarding tanker cars quite seriously. Good comment. Others have mentioned the potential need to convert old rubber components to materials compatible with E10, but old rubber components fail eventually anyway and have always been a routine part of prudent vehicle maintenance. I see this as stuff that should be done anyways just needing to be done sooner.

Perhaps the hightened awareness of potential component degradation is a blessing in disguise. How many owners here have got hoses and gaskets that have not been touched since the day the car was built or a restoration done in the distant past three owners ago? There are just as many 'what-ifs' with these cars.

I'd rather have facts put on the table for analysis rather than react only to 'the sky is falling' brigade.

[Paul S.]

Re: Ethanol

Terry,

I'm surprised you could buy ethanol free gasoline--was it at every gas station in your area or just a few that had ethanol free gas up until the past weekend?

I wouldn't be at all surprised that it may have been a pump labeling issue, especially if most gas stations in your area have had ethanol in their gas. I remember back 5-6 years ago, there was one Chevron station near my house that didn't have the pumps labeled "may contain up to 10% ethanol", but other Chevrons only a few blocks away did. Then finally the one closest to my house had the disclosure stickers on their pumps. I've not seen any gas pumps for years in DFW that didn't disclose ethanol in the gas.

Also, given that there are only so many gasoline refineries I'm not sure where PA would be getting gas without ethanol when it's pretty much sold nationwide.

Hence, my question. There's no way to know for certain, but you may have been burning a gas/ethanol blend for quite some time. If your fuel economy doesn't drop off now, then that may be your answer.

It's not so bad in the summer time, but when they switch to the winter mix, I can easily tell my fuel economy drops in all my cars (Dallas is far enough North, that we get the winter gas with higher ethanol in it--not sure what the relative proportions are winter vs. summer blend). My daughter lives in San Antonio, and when I drive down there in winter, my MPG is considerably less on the way down (on the gas I bought in Dallas) than the way back (on the gas I bought in San Antonio). And on the winter blend, I get a lot more black exhaust soot on my 911's chrome muffler tips, than I do during the summer time.