Bogus trim tags for sale...

[Joe C.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

It is DISINGENUOUS, that we do not require a "recall" on all C2's Top Flighted (not to mention those cars having achieved Duntov honors) at the regional or national level, which were garnered within a certain "window". Let's say, for the ten year period before NCRS judges became fully versed in the interpretation of the Grenning/Sinor Trim Tag publication. Trim tag production had gone through many gestations during that time. Trim tag reproduction had reached the point of "high art", and were not detectable, even under magnification!

We owe it to the Membership..................and to potential buyers.

We are selling NCRS "CONFIRMATION" certificates for $300.00, right?

What of Mister Gullible, the owner of a Duntov awarded hypothetical red/red 1967 427/435 Corvette, who LEGITIMATELY believes that his car is authentic, having purchased it in 2001, from Mister Slimeball, with a reproduction trim tag in place, which he was not aware of. What if this car was Duntov awarded in, let's say, the year 2000. The state of the judging art, in the year 2000, would have easily allowed such a car to "slip through". So now, Mister Rich Speculator, a potential buyer, purchases the $300.00 Magic Bullet for this car in 2009. He ends up buying the Corvette (one of only 10 red/red '67's with the optional atomic cigar lighter) from Mister G for $350,000.00.

Wow! Now the car has a verifiable history, right? So now Mister Rich Speculator has his $350,000.00 commodity judged in 2010, and, BANG......the car gets busted for a repro tag. OOOOHHHHHHHH, the shame of it all. The tragedy. The deception. The profit. The lawsuit(s).

The horror....................the horror.

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Has the NCRS taken on the role of certifying and authenticating cars? No, and hopefully never will.

[Joe C.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

I have a 1967 coupe (2nd owner) it was stolen from me in the early 80's and recovered by the police and returned to me. With the original trim tag removed and the vin tag replaced. I applied and recieved thru the state for replacment vin tag. The Vin tag has the original numbers but that is it (no other info). Ihave little option but to get a 'repro" trim tag. It is my understanding that I can't get it judged without a trm tag. I should mention that I have the original window sticker, build sheet, protecto-plate, documentation on the theft of the car, application for a replacment vin tag. Now what do I do ? I am not trying to buy a 'bogus" trim tag, simply replacing the original. My point of all of this is there is a need for someone to reproduce legitimate trim tags.

Bill

Have the car judged as-is............................minus the trim tag.
You will automatically receive a MAXIMUM, second flight award.

[Joe C.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Has the NCRS taken on the role of certifying and authenticating cars? No, and hopefully never will.

Damn right!

Tell me what is the KEY word in this title:

NCRS Authentication Library Volume 1: GM Issued 1963-67 Corvette Trim Tags

[Jack H.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Even GM, many years ago, had a process to get a replacement VIN. That process is long gone.

That's correct and I've seen a few cars that went through the process of having these tags replaced via legitimate GM channels. But, Catch-22, those replacement tags were run off on addressograph/multigraph machines located elsewhere in GM (Detroit vs. St. Louis) and they won't pass the scrutiny documented in the Sinor/Grenning book, but they ARE valid.

So, absent the current owner actually having GM paperwork to PROVE his/her replacement tag is 'legit', we're currently prone to declare it a 'fake' and deduct accordingly. That's a problem I see with our current system...

A few years back, I had to turn away a C1 for Chapter Flight Judging that was of this ilk. The owner had the replacement VIN tag in a booklet along with ALL of the supporting correspondence (dealer to zone dealer, zone dealer to GM, GM to customer, Etc.) to document the situation. BUT, the NCRS Judging Reference Manual clearly says, Section 2, Rule 1:

"...The car must have the correct attached, Chevrolet factory Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) plate, or attached valid state-approved replacement ID plate which matches title and/or registration. Should a car appear with a Chevrolet (GM) issued duplicate VIN plate, it must be accompanied with acceptable documentation from the Chevrolet Division of Geneneral Motors confirming issuance. Any car appearing without identification as described shall be ineligible for any NCRS judging"

Here the owner (who was the original owner) DID have the documentation to support his car's replacement VIN tag, but the tag was NOT 'attached' as the rule requires! In this case, all the owner wanted was to know how the car would judge/score, so we executed a 'courtesy judging' and did not officially record/turn in the Flight Score Sheets nor issue any award. We DID refund his judging fee. Everyone was a happy camper.

But, what about the guys who had such happen, didn't bother to keep the GM paperwork and sold the car? A handfull of current owners would be unhappy campers especially, when some of us at NCRS use impolite English to describe cars with this kind of anomoly...

The terms 'fake', 'bogus', 'fraud' don't help and probably aren't really necessary in our venacular. Equivalent terms like 'non-standard', 'unconventional' and 'atypical' convey the same meaning without being politically/emotionally charged!

[Jack H.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Chevy routinely manufactured cars (still does today) to the customer's order that fell outside the 'recommended' color combination matrix.

These are not special or COPO orders as long as they fall within the available standard parts matrix. It's only when there's an aspect to the car that falls outside the plant's existing drawing system that you get a true 'special' situation.

Things like the Shriner's Corvettes that were stark raving pink WERE special builds. But, cars that use off-the-shelf components and simply fall outside the recommended color combo matrix are not specials...

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Damn right!

Tell me what is the KEY word in this title:

NCRS Authentication Library Volume 1: GM Issued 1963-67 Corvette Trim Tags

It is not mandatory to use this book at any/all judging meets, AFAIK.

The person using the book does not need to show proof of having read or understood the contents, or that he/she has correctly applied any knowledge gained.

Even if a tag is thought to be 'real' there is no forensic work done to establish that the tag in question is the one attached by GM to that car on the production line.

The judges do not have any status within the NCRS that permits them to sign legally binding documents on behalf of the organization.

The judging certificates contain a disclaimer on the subject of originality and authenticity.

The $300 fee for judging records has nothing to do with authentication.

I see where you're trying to go with this one Joe, and agree that use of the word 'authentication' in the title of the trim tag book is a slippery slope.

[Tom L.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

I find this discussion very interesting. I'm not a judge nor have I ever been judged. That said, this thread reminds me of one from some time back, it was a discussion about warranty replacement "CE" blocks.

I chose to toss out the idea that a car with an in-warranty replacement engine along with credible documentation similar to what Jack describes deserves some regognition. That being that the car left the factory never having a chance of being a numbers matching car due to a manufacturing problem. I was quickly corrected and told that, and I'm paraphrasing, "...if it didn't come from the factory with that block, it isn't origional". I can accept that.

What Jack describes in his ID plate scenario is very similar, if it didn't come from the factory with that tag, it isn't origional reguardless of the paper trail.

Perhaps someday those that write the rules will find that sometimes there are grey areas and there are exceptions to the rules and that changes need to be made. But until that happens, the rules are the rules. We don't have to like them, just play by them. Just my 2 pennies. Have fun!!

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

I find this discussion very interesting. I'm not a judge nor have I ever been judged. That said, this thread reminds me of one from some time back, it was a discussion about warranty replacement "CE" blocks.

I chose to toss out the idea that a car with an in-warranty replacement engine along with credible documentation similar to what Jack describes deserves some regognition. That being that the car left the factory never having a chance of being a numbers matching car due to a manufacturing problem.

Lynn,

The answer is quite simple.

1) not all CE engines were warranty replacements, many were supplied as over the counter engines, sort of the 'crate engine' of today

2) there's no known way to tie a given CE to a particular car. The pad stamping contains no particular info to achieve this.

If NCRS were to give more credit to CE engine there would be a mad rush out to the bone yards to pull CEs out of every dump truck and station wagon in sight and stick it in a Corvette. Just as all 175 of the original 20 L88s have been accounted for, there'd be 10X as many CE Corvettes as GM ever paid warranty on.

Mike

[Larry E.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Attn: Jack Humphrey

You had a very interesting response to this thread. This is for your info:
I have taken seminairs from the top people in this field. ( I will not mention
names) and have brought up the subject about the other addressograph/
multigraph machines making legitimate trim tags. ref: GM reissue program
at Detroit vs. St. Louis. They indicated this was not true and that only St.
Louis made the Trim Tags.

My simple question: Was there or Was there not other Addressograph/
multigraph machines in GM that made up legitimate Corvette Trim Tags
outside of the St.Louis Plant? Any proof of this one way or the other?

Larry

[John H.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

My simple question: Was there or Was there not other Addressograph/
multigraph machines in GM that made up legitimate Corvette Trim Tags
outside of the St.Louis Plant? Any proof of this one way or the other?

Larry

Larry -

Every Fisher Body plant (and A.O. Smith) had Graphotype machines to create the cowl trim tag for every body they built, with the same font dies used on the Corvette, but they used a different size/format tag. That said, many of those old Fisher Body machines "disappeared" when those plants closed, and it's a simple matter to modify the tag carrier plate to accommodate the unique Corvette trim tag. That's where the dozen or so current tag-fakers got their machines.

As far as I know, there was no GM "re-issue" program for Corvette trim tags - it's not a legal descriptor for the car, and can't be tied to a given VIN number (and nobody ever paid any attention to them unless a dealer needed a paint code.

[Tom L.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Micheal, I'm not trying to get anything here and your response is correct in terms of the mad rush to find CE engine would be the case as you stated.

However, one important comment that I made in my post was, "...in-warranty replacement engine along with credible documentation". This would in fact link a particular engine with a particular car just as the tag Jack spoke of was linked to a specific car.

And BTW, I have a CE engine and NO credible documentation, it's just my opinion and maybe someone out there has the paperwork on their car to link their CE to their car. Have fun!!!

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

However, one important comment that I made in my post was, "...in-warranty replacement engine along with credible documentation". This would in fact link a particular engine with a particular car just as the tag Jack spoke of was linked to a specific car.

Thanks, I did see your mention of that. The problem then becomes tieing the engine presently in the car to the paperwork at hand. Unless the pad numbers (if any) were recorded on the dealership paperwork, there's no way to establish a positive link.

I am sympathetic to your situation, for the particular reason that the present rules might encourage a person to remove a legitimate CE engine and replace it with a numbers and period correct restamp. This temptation would still be there even if CEs were given partial credit however.

Mike

[Bill M.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

I have always wondered why people wanted to catalog numbers? no way any body associated withe the NCRS would want to corectly forge numbers? What better way to do so than to have 1000's of copies in stock?

[William S.]

Re: Bogus trim tags for sale...

Joe,

So, if I understand you correctly my car can be perfect in every way except for no trim tag and I can expect only a second flight award?

Bill