Bogus VIN's

[Mike T.]

Seen a lot of attention lately to swapping of major components, (IE frames), and then debating the possibility of the VIN popping up on another car. The result would be 2 cars with the same sequencial VIN.

Also read a recent piece on a real nice 53 that had the same VIN as an original unrestored 53 with 56 years of mold and barnacles growing on the VIN plate. Obvious what is a fraud in this case.

I just found out another interesting piece of information. For the midyears, I just uncovered a counterfeiter who used a convertible VIN and changed the 4th digit from a 6 to a 3. Now there's (2) midyears with the same last 5 numbers in the VIN, but one is a coupe, and the other a convertible. They are technically different VIN's for DMV purposes, but both cars could possibly show up on a judging field, and both owners would claim to have "67 Vette, VIN number 15,6XX."

NCRS needs to address this issue more aggressively, and yes, in spite of the outrageous money fellow members have spent, it is against the law, and we need to work with law enforcement to contribute to ending this illegal activity.

[Loren L.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

Perhaps you may already have your answer, or at least an indicator, on page 42 of Driveline #190 which arrived today and the ad that reads in part:

"...clean 1963 Title best offer...."

I am not naive enough to believe that such does not happen - I do have a problem when NCRS abets the process. I also know that there was a period of time, policy or not, that this ad would have been treated as "Never Received" on the basis of good old common sense.
Obviously, those days are gone.

[William C.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I would strongly suggest that if you have a suggestion as to how this should be handles re the "driveline" that you take it up with your regional rep. They have the ability to control content in an NCRS publication.

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

NCRS needs to address this issue more aggressively, and yes, in spite of the outrageous money fellow members have spent, it is against the law, and we need to work with law enforcement to contribute to ending this illegal activity.

What standards and processes do you have in mind that you plan on pushing forward within the NCRS for you to then present to the authorities?

In the case of two cars, each with a legally acquired state issued VIN tag but sharing the same SN, who decides which one is bogus? Based on what? Will you confront the state authorities who 'screwed up'?

[Valeria H.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

You are right on the mark! The issue requires the NCRS to address the situation as it could possibly arise on the judging field and be prepared with a standards to meet the occasion.
I myself have a car with a vin number different than my engine vin number even though both are 60's.
This will take some thought and much debate but a ruling really needs to be made before the situation comes to light.
Valeria

[Scott S.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

What standards and processes do you have in mind that you plan on pushing forward within the NCRS for you to then present to the authorities?

In the case of two cars, each with a legally acquired state issued VIN tag but sharing the same SN, who decides which one is bogus? Based on what? Will you confront the state authorities who 'screwed up'?

My car isn't a big-block or high-optioned small-block, so if I understand correctly, I don't think anyone would have a good reason to be "lifting" my car's serial number for fraudulent use on another car. But it raises two questions I'd be interested in answers to.

If another car "showed up" with the same VIN as my car, and I have the original certificate of Title from when my Dad bought the car (used) in 1976, and it has been in the family since 1976, that would settle the issue, wouldn't it?

Second, I have posted pictures of my engine stamp pad and maybe the whole VIN here on the Forum. Please pardon my ignorance, is this not a wise thing to do? If I shouldn't, then I will find the posts and edit them.

Thanks very much,

Scott

[Joe L.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

My car isn't a big-block or high-optioned small-block, so if I understand correctly, I don't think anyone would have a good reason to be "lifting" my car's serial number for fraudulent use on another car. But it raises two questions I'd be interested in answers to.

If another car "showed up" with the same VIN as my car, and I have the original certificate of Title from when my Dad bought the car (used) in 1976, and it has been in the family since 1976, that would settle the issue, wouldn't it?

Second, I have posted pictures of my engine stamp pad and maybe the whole VIN here on the Forum. Please pardon my ignorance, is this not a wise thing to do? If I shouldn't, then I will find the posts and edit them.

Thanks very much,

Scott

Scott------


Vehicle identification "irregularities", especially with these old but valuable cars, is a HUGE problem. Vehicle identification systems for these cars were not capable of providing much fraud or identity protection. Things got progressively better over the years but for the 50's, 60's and 70's, fraud and theft protection features were rudimentary.

One big problem, aside from VIN plate counterfeiting, is simply VIN plate transfer. This is child's play for 50's, 60's and 70's cars. You'll even find Corvettes with non-Corvette VIN plates----fully registered in probably any state. Change the VIN plate and a 1966 Corvette "becomes", for example, a 1966 Biscayne (for registration purposes only). The 1966 Corvette's original identity and the Chevrolet Biscayne "disappear from the face of the earth". After all, who checks frame ID numbers?

[Michael W.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

You are right on the mark! The issue requires the NCRS to address the situation as it could possibly arise on the judging field and be prepared with a standards to meet the occasion.
I myself have a car with a vin number different than my engine vin number even though both are 60's.
This will take some thought and much debate but a ruling really needs to be made before the situation comes to light.
Valeria

So you and the OP are going to volunteer your time to organise all this? Thanks. The NCRS has a grand total of only (IIRC) three employees. Maybe four. Not hundreds.

You'll need dozens of trained experts to travel the world and start 'policing' every car that wanders onto the judging field. What will you do if a given car is suspect? Call the police? Handcuff the owner?

Seems to me that most civilized countries have fairly sophisticated vehicle registries that (at a minimum) can look for duplicate serial numbers. The only persons that have any business meddling in these things are the owners and the law and not the NCRVS- National Corvette Restorers Vigilante Society.

[Scott S.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

Scott------


Vehicle identification "irregularities", especially with these old but valuable cars, is a HUGE problem. Vehicle identification systems for these cars were not capable of providing much fraud or identity protection. Things got progressively better over the years but for the 50's, 60's and 70's, fraud and theft protection features were rudimentary.

One big problem, aside from VIN plate counterfeiting, is simply VIN plate transfer. This is child's play for 50's, 60's and 70's cars. You'll even find Corvettes with non-Corvette VIN plates----fully registered in probably any state. Change the VIN plate and a 1966 Corvette "becomes", for example, a 1966 Biscayne (for registration purposes only). The 1966 Corvette's original identity and the Chevrolet Biscayne "disappear from the face of the earth". After all, who checks frame ID numbers?

I did!

It was easy to check, since the body was off. It had the tank sticker intact too (see pictures below), but it's in bad shape. I'm working on it right at the moment, to try to reveal the writing on what little paper is still left under the dirt. When it was removed from the tank, it separated into multiple pieces. So far, in just last 15 minutes or so, scraping it carefully with a pocket-knife, it has cleaned up a little. I could already read "Corvette Order Copy" in what appears to be the upper right hand corner, above the "COPO/F&SO" box, but now I can also see "BLACK TRIM" and some other things I can't quite make out yet, where it was covered with dirt before. Seems like a project better suited to a CSI team...

[Edit: Looks like I can read the paint code, 02983AA, and make out enough to decipher the letters "GOODWOOD GREEN", Order number looks like "6442", and "of Prod." looks like something - 66. Near the handwritten "372" it says "RATIO TRAN", but the piece before those words is missing.]

[Joe L.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I did!

It was easy to check, since the body was off. It had the tank sticker intact too (see pictures below), but it's in bad shape. I'm working on it right at the moment, to try to reveal the writing on what little paper is still left under the dirt. When it was removed from the tank, it separated into multiple pieces. So far, in just last 15 minutes or so, scraping it carefully with a pocket-knife, it has cleaned up a little. I could already read "Corvette Order Copy" in what appears to be the upper right hand corner, above the "COPO/F&SO" box, but now I can also see "BLACK TRIM" and some other things I can't quite make out yet, where it was covered with dirt before. Seems like a project better suited to a CSI team...

[Edit: Looks like I can read the paint code, 02983AA, and make out enough to decipher the letters "GOODWOOD GREEN", Order number looks like "6442", and "of Prod." looks like something - 66. Near the handwritten "372" it says "RATIO TRAN", but the piece before those words is missing.]

Scott------


In the VAST majority of the cases, when folks are buying or otherwise inspecting a car, they don't check the frame number. Sometimes, they don't even check the VIN plate, let alone the frame number.

[Scott S.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

Scott------


In the VAST majority of the cases, when folks are buying or otherwise inspecting a car, they don't check the frame number. Sometimes, they don't even check the VIN plate, let alone the frame number.

I understand Joe, I wasn't very careful when I bought my first Corvette, a '69 350/350 4-speed coupe, back in 1996. All I knew at the time was that the car I was looking for should be "numbers-matching", without really even knowing just what that meant. I got lucky, but then, it was a low-optioned car, so maybe the temptation to misrepresent it was less. I wanted a 60s Corvette, and I couldn't afford a midyear, so that meant a '68 or '69. My only "must have" requirements were the highest horsepower small-block available, 4-speed, coupe. Hopefully in red. That's what I found, it had power steering too, and though it wasn't really in very good condition, it looked good from 10 feet, it was mine, and it was more fun to drive, by far, than any other car I'd ever driven.

I had that car for 11 years, and I was sure sorry to see her go. I've never driven the '67 that I'm restoring right now. I rode in the back storage area a lot with my sister when we were little though. Who needs seat-belts when you don't even have seats?

[Scott S.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I finished scraping the dirt off what was left of the pieces of the tank sticker, and then pieced it together. Going from pictures of other tank stickers, I was able to decipher the letters and words for the first three lines, the axle ratio and the CL transmission... and if I'm reading this right, this car CAME FROM THE FACTORY with "4 SEASON AIR COND"

All these years I had it in my mind that my Dad installed a "factory" A/C from a '67 donor Corvette that was being parted out at the annual McDorman's Chevrolet Corvette show that we used to go to every summer. The only thing I can figure out now is that maybe this car came from the factory with A/C and it was removed by a previous owner, and my Dad put it back in the car?

How would I verify such a thing, or verify that the A/C was never out of the car in the first place? I'm sure there's a way, and I'm sure somebody here knows how.

There are signs that make me think this car was raced at some point, it has a lot of scars from its early years, and we found a gold stripe over the original Goodwood Green paint underneath the chrome trim at the bottom of the window on the driver's side door (no idea what that's about). But it clearly has writing on the third line of the tank sticker, and I couldn't make it out until I found a picture of a tank sticker with A/C to compare it to, so I could fill in the blanks. This thing says " 4 S*ASON AI* CON* " !!!

Sorry to hijack this Thread, I'll start a new one... it's late, but I couldn't stop once I started figuring this out... and then I had to be sure!

[Joe R.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I think anyone would be ill advised to publish paperwork for any Corvette on this site or any other site or publication.

It just gives dishonest people a chance to make money on the backs of honest people.

Think this has not happened? Hang around an NCRS Regional event and keep your ears open.

JR

[James W.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I think anyone would be ill advised to publish paperwork for any Corvette on this site or any other site or publication.

It just gives dishonest people a chance to make money on the backs of honest people.

Think this has not happened? Hang around an NCRS Regional event and keep your ears open.

JR

In Texas when a car is bought in another state and transferred to a Texas title the DPS (Department of Public Safety) checks the VIN on the block and frame. I bought my 1990 ZR-1 in San Jose and had to do this when titling it. Nothing occurs for in-state sales, but at least it's a step in the right direction

Jim

[Scott S.]

Re: Bogus VIN's

I think anyone would be ill advised to publish paperwork for any Corvette on this site or any other site or publication.

It just gives dishonest people a chance to make money on the backs of honest people.

Think this has not happened? Hang around an NCRS Regional event and keep your ears open.

JR

Thanks Joe Ray. I still don't really understand how it would help anyone though, since they are sequential, and if a person knows an estimated "beginning" serial number for a given model year he could just make one up, and it will match somebody's car, won't it?

I guess I don't understand why someone would go to the trouble of using one that has already been "published" or mentioned, when they could just make one up that fits within the estimated start and end of model year serial numbers, and have less chance of being found out, as opposed to using a number that has already been posted.

I guess I don't understand why it would be useful to someone, but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I'll undo a few things in earlier posts. Guess I better delete some of those pictures, too. That's too bad, because it's a lot of fun to share this stuff, and the people on the Corvette forums are the only people on earth I know of who are interested in talking about these things.