GM

[Duke W.]

Re: GM

There are still a lot of those old two-stroke Jimmy diesels in service - mostly off-road and marine service. That's why Chevron still offers the old CF-2 oil.

Though the prime mover technology is relatively ancient - just like the mechanical guts of automotive engines, locomotive control systems are very high tech, especially when you consider that you are taking 3000 kilowatts of variable frequency AC out of the generator, rectifying it to DC, and then running it through an inverter that outputs variable frequency AC on the AC drive types. It's this inverter and additional controls that add significant cost. DC traction motors can use the power coming off the rectifier.

Interestingly, the Chevy Volt's architecture is similar to a diesel electric locomotive. The IC engine drives a generator that powers the electric drive. The IC engine has no mechanical connection to the drive wheels. What they added was a battery, but such a locomotive exists. I think it's called the "Green Goat" - a yard locomotive, which is an environment where a "hybrid" (battery and IC engine) can yield significant fuel use reduction.

Back when I was a grad student at the U. of Wisconsin Engine Research center we threw this idea around. The problem back then was the control technology, which was all based on mechanical relays, and there were only eight power settings. That wouldn't work on a car. Nowadays with solid state digital control technology the systems can provide better control granularity. They are cheaper to produce, weight less, and take up less space, but are more difficult and expensive to design, develop, and debug.

I don't know how long the two-stroke 710 will be viable. GE developed a new four-stroke engine for Tier 1, and it probably has a lot of development left. EMD will probably have to go with the H engine at some point. It's not dead. Not long after the sale, EMD made a deal with China for locomotives that will use the H. Most of the assembly will be done over there. In a sense they may be giving away their technology, but it will also fund additional development of the H.

Maybe they'll end up moving the whole company to China. That wouldn't surprise me.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: GM

Better China than India. Sorry to mention that, but I had to escort some of their people around the plant and deal with them in the EMD training center. You couldn't do enough for them. They wanted to know everything as if their licensing agreement gave them a right to your personal data as well. WOW! What an exasperating experience that was.

Wasn't there a 2 cycle diesel engined Indy car once, or was I just dreaming of one?

Stu Fox

[Stuart F.]

Re: GM

As an after thought; I see the new LS-7 engine has piston cooling. Uhum, wonder where they got that idea? Perhaps from EMD who got it from old German diesel engine designs?

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: GM

Cummins entered a diesel powered car at Indy - early fifties, I think, but I don't know if it was two or four-stroke. I'm not aware that Cummins ever built a two-stroke as part of their product line.

Maybe Clem remembers that far back. I'm too young.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: GM

Ah yes! That may be what I was thinking of. Now that you mention that, my Dad hand built the radiators for that car at Young Radiator Co. in Racine, WI.

My old army buddy also attended U of W in Madison, only in electrical engineering (late 60's). He is the fellow that convinced me to buy the Vette in 63 as he was an SCCA license holder sport car nut. He worked also for Heavy Duty Electric in Watertown, and was said to be one of the few electrical engineers in the country that could design certain HD electrical systems, at that time. We were going to go into business together after I got out of the Army, using all the analytical programs he copied at U of W, I guess. But, my marriage/family and his passing from an aneurysm changed the course of history.

Stu fox

[Dick W.]

Re: GM

The Cummins engine for Indy was a 4 stroke cycle turbocharged bus engine. The bus engines were a pancake version of the regular highway engines. I believe the model designation was NHH. I could dig into my old Cummins manuals for more info on the engine if anyone should so desire.

[Duke W.]

Re: GM

I'd be more interested in knowing what bus manufacturers used the engine. GM dominated that market in that era, and they used their own Jimmy two-stoke diesels.

I remember Flxibles (even drove one occasionally in the summer of '66 up in Alaska) from that era, but I recall that most were powered by gasoline engines.

Duke

[Dick W.]

Re: GM

I think that most were used in inter-city bus lines. I only saw one, sometime in the late '50's, and it was in a highway post office built by Fageol. All the Cummins manuals of that era list the engine, but not what manufacturers used it.

Crown Coach, Mack, Ford, Marmon Herrington, Motor Coach Industries, were a few of the other manufacturers. All the Ford's and Marmon's that I have seen were gas engines

[Michael A.]

Re: GM

The control technology is allowing alot of changes. Caterpillar just introduced the D7E with electric drive. They've essentially replaced the old mechanical power train of engine/transmission/final drive with engine/generator/drive motors. Similar to some of the large mining trucks but the first time (in my knowledge) that it is being used in a dozer application. Much different load profile as you can imagine than the mining trucks. Significant reduction in fuel consumption, and resulting emissions. It will be interesting to see how it works.

As for EMD moving to China. That wouldn't surprise me. There is a much larger locomotive opportunity in that part of the world. It's growing where it's pretty much matured here in the US with nothing but cyclical swings into the future.

Hmmm, kind of off topic for a NCRS topic but once again I'm amazed at the diversity of experiences and knowledge out here.

Cheers,

[Dick W.]

Re: GM

Duke, another couple of bus manufacturers that I forgot, Flxible, Twin Coach, owned by the Fageol brothers.

Here is a list of defunct North American bus manufacturers

Aerocoach • AM General • Canadian Car and Foundry • Carpenter Body Company • Corbeil Buses • Crown Coach Corporation • Fageol • Fifth Avenue Bus Company • Flxible • General Motors Corporation (buses)/General Motors Diesel Division • Kenworth • Mack Trucks • Neoplan USA • Superior Coach Company • Transportation Manufacturing Corporation • Twin Coach • U.S. Bus Corporation • Wayne Corporation • Yellow Coach

[Duke W.]

Re: GM

Didn't the "Twin Coach" have two engines?

Duke

PS - I answered my own question.

http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/reghist/twincoa.html

[Dick W.]

Re: GM

Twin Coach was the company formed by the Faegol brothers when they went bankrupt in the '30's? and a mister Peterman bought the assets, shortly starting production of the Peterbilt. I think that the early Twin Coaches had two engines because the available engines of the day were very low power and, in their mind, unacceptable for the transit coach business. In later years, the available engines had enough power, negating the need for two engines. The only Twin Coach I know anything about had a Cummins engine.

[Martin N.]

Re: GM

WELL-
Looks like tomorrow (Mon. 06-01-09) is the day. It'll be interesting to see what the market does in the AM.

A statement from a group of large, institutional bondholders Sunday said 54 percent of GM bondholders agreed to exchange their unsecured bonds for a 10 percent stake in a newly restructured company, plus warrants to purchase a greater share later. Their acceptance is seen as critical in moving the company through bankruptcy quickly.

Marty

[Chuck L.]

Re: GM

I don't understand why everyone is so negative on Corvette speed vs MPG. Mine is 6 years old, gets 31 mpg Highway, and according to all the old magazines, goes at least 160 mph. If I drove it that fast, I'd be in the nearest ditch! I read about 626 HP and 200 mph, but only 22MPG or less, and wonder why do we do this? Why spend $110K on a car that will never be driven to its ultimate unless Helio is at the wheel when you can now buy a used C5 for 20K that will exceed the human body's ability to control it? What am I missing? Old age is bad!

[Duke W.]

Re: GM

The latest online AP report says:

GM "is expected to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection at 8 a.m. EDT Monday, according to people familiar with the company's plans. They declined to be identified because the plans haven't been officially announced."

This is before the NYSE opens. I doubt if trading on GM stock will open.

I'll still be in bed out here on the West Coast at 8 EDT, but will probably read about it with my morning coffee.

Duke