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Dealer installed items

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  • Jack H.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • April 1, 1990
    • 9906

    #61
    Re: Dealer installed items

    I don't think I'm splitting hairs. I think I'm reading and correctly interpreting club scoring rules as apparently the late Marvin Burnett did...

    But, Pat, I didn't lay out the Flight Score Sheets. So, I answered your question to the best of my ability. Now, it you want to nail my shoes to the floor and laugh while I try to walk around, so be it.

    But, to the extent you're taking a full deduction for Finish on those parts that received the owner/dealer inspired undercoating, I think you're doing the best you can, within the existing system, in complying with our judging rules.

    Comment

    • Jack H.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • April 1, 1990
      • 9906

      #62
      Re: Dealer installed items

      HEY, I do NOT have a problem with that, amigo! I'm the one who also said there were places where our existing rules conflict with each other and there's no clear avenue for resolution...

      On the other hand, if NTL's published the year by year recognized list of applicable Dealer Accessories, it'd make judging compliance a lot easier!

      But, consider we see the same car configuration(s) repeatedly. Some of these Dealer Accessories are NEAT to see!

      So, I don't have a heartache with them showing up on Flight cars since we understand the owner IS going to take some form of deduction for their presense. So, where's the harm?

      They ARE part of the history of the marque...

      Comment

      • Jamie F.
        Expired
        • May 20, 2008
        • 337

        #63
        Re: Kenneth

        Kenneth,
        Sorry to hear about the loss of your Wife.
        Good to see your keeping a positive attitude.
        I lost mine two years ago, keep focused on the fun stuff and treasure the memories.

        Comment

        • Michael H.
          Expired
          • January 29, 2008
          • 7477

          #64
          Re: Dealer installed items

          Originally posted by Jack Humphrey (17100)
          there's no clear avenue for resolution...

          ...
          I don't think it's too late in life to make some adjustments/corrections. If the TL for each category does his/her homework, they will know how each year car is supposed to be equipped as it leaves the assy plant or dealer after a typical basic new car get ready.

          For the owners that want to display over the counter items/accessories on their car during judging, I have absolutely no problem with that as long as the owners have no problem with the deductions that they would/should receive.

          Comment

          • Dick W.
            Former NCRS Director Region IV
            • June 30, 1985
            • 10483

            #65
            Re: Dealer installed items

            Originally posted by Jack Humphrey (17100)

            On the other hand, if NTL's published the year by year recognized list of applicable Dealer Accessories, it'd make judging compliance a lot easier!

            ...
            WHY? The accessories are judged as a deduction anyway? MOST people are aware that they will take deductions, up to full for dealer/owner inspired additions. As a former team leader I could care less about dealer installed options on the judging field. They do not fit our judging standards PERIOD.
            Dick Whittington

            Comment

            • Steven B.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • June 30, 1982
              • 3989

              #66
              Re: Dealer installed items

              It was mentioned earlier that dealer installed accessories included floor mats. Which model years were the mats dealer installed versus part of a factory package?

              As example the 1978 sales brochure includes under Comfort, Convenience and Appearance Equipment: "Convenience Package, including monetary stay-lit feature for dome and courtesy lights, visor mirror, "headlights on" buzzer, low fuel indicator and engine compartment light, floor mats, and intermittent windshield control".

              The order form for our '78 includes no reference to mats but does include "ZX2 Convenience Group" and we did not spell them out individually when ordering. The build sheet includes "B32 Floor Mat". When the car rolled off the transporter the mats were laying in the luggage compartment.

              I realize the sales brochure is not proof one way or the other as to factory installed, but the build sheet includes it and it was delivered off the truck with the mats in the back.

              My question is it appears in this case, 1978 with Comfort and Convenience Option, the mats came in the car from the factory. It would also be possible to not order the C&C Option and order from the dealer mats only which would be delivered through parts so some were dealer installed.

              This brings up the question, at least for the '78 with C&C Option are the mats considered factory installed? What years were the mats factory installed and dealer installed?

              Thanks!

              Steve

              Comment

              • Patrick H.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • December 1, 1989
                • 11643

                #67
                Re: Dealer installed items

                Originally posted by Jack Humphrey (17100)
                I don't think I'm splitting hairs. I think I'm reading and correctly interpreting club scoring rules as apparently the late Marvin Burnett did...

                But, Pat, I didn't lay out the Flight Score Sheets. So, I answered your question to the best of my ability. Now, it you want to nail my shoes to the floor and laugh while I try to walk around, so be it.

                But, to the extent you're taking a full deduction for Finish on those parts that received the owner/dealer inspired undercoating, I think you're doing the best you can, within the existing system, in complying with our judging rules.
                And, as Dick mentioned, the percentages in the JG's were "nullified" several years ago. So, at least my observation is that you're trying to split hairs by pointing at the notation in one particular JG while also pointing to the FDICC and the JRM. You can't have it both ways.

                To go back to the gas cap, I can't imagine how any locking gas cap I've ever seen fulfills even one of the FDICC categories. But again, that's my interpretation.
                Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
                71 "deer modified" coupe
                72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
                2008 coupe
                Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.

                Comment

                • Michael H.
                  Expired
                  • January 29, 2008
                  • 7477

                  #68
                  Re: Dealer installed items

                  Originally posted by Steven Brohard (5759)
                  It was mentioned earlier that dealer installed accessories included floor mats. Which model years were the mats dealer installed versus part of a factory package?
                  Good point Steve. I know very little about C3 cars but in the case of a 78 with the B32 option, the car probably should be shown with the mats. I doubt a 78 without the B32 would qualify though.
                  I don't know if other year C3's ever had that option available but I wouldn't be surprised if they did offer it in the later years.

                  I know there was no such option for any C2 cars.
                  Last edited by Michael H.; April 29, 2009, 04:33 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Terry M.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • September 30, 1980
                    • 15599

                    #69
                    Re: Dealer installed items

                    Floor mats were a dealer installed option, and NOT a factory option for 1968-1972. For some of those years the option was, like some other things, black only. Some of those years years clear matts were also available.
                    Terry

                    Comment

                    • Jack H.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • April 1, 1990
                      • 9906

                      #70
                      Re: Dealer installed items

                      Rule 8 stands by itself. Is the locking gas cap a legitimate dealer accessory for the year of Corvette being judged? Then, the rule applies and you can't take a full deduction. We're required to take a 'small' deduction.

                      The reference to Marv Burnett, the 73-74 JG books guidance, and our matrix scoring policy are simply paths to deciding what the proper magnitude of 'small' should be. For what it's worth, the locking gas cap IS complete (for what it is)...

                      Comment

                      • Jack H.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • April 1, 1990
                        • 9906

                        #71
                        Re: Dealer installed items

                        The lists of Dealer Accessory/Dealer Options cited by MF Dobbins are 'reasonably' clear. They call out CLEAR floor mats for '68 and '69, sit silent on the issue of color for '70 (could be the year of change where you might get either color), then black for '71.

                        For whatever reason, Dobbins does NOT recite the list of Dealer Accessories offered in 1972...

                        But, as Pat Hulst and others have pointed out, we typically head off this issue by asking the owner to 'lose' the floor mats for the period of time the car is being judged. That's in the owner's interest as the whole notion of what deduction should be taken evaporates!

                        Comment

                        • Dick W.
                          Former NCRS Director Region IV
                          • June 30, 1985
                          • 10483

                          #72
                          Re: Dealer installed items

                          But it does not fit anywhere in FDICC. AND the point alocations in the '73-'74 are NULL & VOID. PERIOD.
                          Dick Whittington

                          Comment

                          • Pat M.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • April 1, 2006
                            • 1575

                            #73
                            Re: Dealer installed items

                            Wow, this thread won't die!
                            I seem to be the only person to take Jack's "side".
                            If a dealer installed accessory IN LIEU OF AN ORIGINAL JUDGED ITEM should recieve no credit, I think the manual should simply state that. If present Rule 8 is as Jack quotes, I think it misleadingly suggests otherwise.

                            Comment

                            • Jack H.
                              Extremely Frequent Poster
                              • April 1, 1990
                              • 9906

                              #74
                              Re: Dealer installed items

                              Yep, that's dead nuts on! The only caveat is when the that dealer installed item falls on the list of dealer exclusive accessories. Then, it's supposed to be covered by Rule 8 in the JRM which precludes judges from taking a full deduction...

                              The issue doesn't surface very often because most owners WANT the best score thay can muster and 'losing' the legitimate dealer accessory item for the period of time the car is being judged achieves that end...

                              Comment

                              • Terry M.
                                Beyond Control Poster
                                • September 30, 1980
                                • 15599

                                #75
                                Re: Dealer installed items

                                I don't know Dob's source of information, but my recollection of my purchase of the clear floor mats for my 1970 (in February of 1970) is that the clear mats were new at that time. Probably a better source than "the Vette Vues Fact Book," or my memory, would be the Chevrolet Accessories booklet for each year. I have one for 1970, and it shows both clear AND black mats, as well as a hand-held spot light, emergency road hazard kit, luggage rack, and of course the locking gas cap that started all this.

                                It sounds like the early C3 judging manual revision team will have a difference of opinion regarding how to treat dealer installed accessories. We ought to have a lot of fun once we get rolling.
                                Terry

                                Comment

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