Dealer installed items

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I agree, the 'GM logo' issue is a non-issue. The factory original gas cap has no GM logo on it. It's wacked with Stant's logo since it too was a purchased part. There's no GM logo on the Donnelly right hand mirror we all agree doesn't constitute a full deduction nor on the luggage rack.

Plus, there are LOTS of other items on these cars without GM logo and/or part number/casting number. Like fan clutches, some fans, the steering wheel and so on...

What we have is a difference of opinion on rule interpretation. We do have a standard deduction, Rule 8, that speaks to the issue of GM Approved Dealer Installed Accessories. It mandates "a small deduction will be made for any Chevorlet dealer installed accessory, such as a luggage rack, right hand rear view mirror, Etc."

The poster told us he has the bill of sale for the car and it calls out a locking gas cap. So, I'm going to PRESUME that the locking gas cap on his car is the correct/original dealer exclusive item versus some other aftermarket locking gas cap. I can't see the justification for a full deduction...

We also have Bill Mehrkens comment about the '73-74 JG. I'll elaborate. It says:

"A smooth top locking gas cap is a dealer installed option snd should receive a 30% deduction on originality". We can debate what deduction is appropriate, but here's a case of another NTL looking at the SAME part and saying it does NOT qualify for a full deduction.

That's my point, we DO have different judges interpreting our rules differently. That's a consistency problem in my book.

All I can say is if this car were Flight judged out here in Colorado, you guys took a full deduction for the locking gas cap and the owner appealed, this meet chairman would rule in favor of the owner and reverse you. This where we need a top's down advice...

As to how much the deduction should be, looking at the locking gas cap through the eyes of our matrix scoring policy it deviates from the correct factory original part in terms of Finish, Configuration and Installation. Therefore the MAX I could see as being applicable is a 60% loss on originality.

The sprit of Rule 8 is to treat these parts with a 'small deduction', so the guidance given by the '73-74 division may well be appropriate since it's half the magnitude of what would result from a standard matrix scoring evaluation...

[Stuart F.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Nice thought Roy. I've stayed out of judging because I have a dealer installed hard top and locking gas cap. I don't use the top much any more, but the mounting holes/hardware are there. I do have my original cap though plus a later one which I prefer with the 2 way valve.

Stu Fox

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Nice thought Roy. I've stayed out of judging because I have a dealer installed hard top and locking gas cap. I don't use the top much any more, but the mounting holes/hardware are there. I do have my original cap though plus a later one which I prefer with the 2 way valve.

Stu Fox

Stu,

The two holes will give you a minimal deduction, if any. And, as you note, the gas cap is an easy fix. If these are the only two issues keeping you from having you car judged then I hope you reconsider.

Patrick

[Roy B.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Nice thought Roy. I've stayed out of judging because I have a dealer installed hard top and locking gas cap. I don't use the top much any more, but the mounting holes/hardware are there. I do have my original cap though plus a later one which I prefer with the 2 way valve.

Stu Fox

Talk about GM logo on the gas cap mine has one You should go ahead and have your Corvette judged anyway , flight or no flight . The judges and the people are good to me and it's fun to be involved ,remember a flight award is only good for that DAY next day it's just fun to drive it home.

[Dick W.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I agree, the 'GM logo' issue is a non-issue. The factory original gas cap has no GM logo on it. It's wacked with Stant's logo since it too was a purchased part. There's no GM logo on the Donnelly right hand mirror we all agree doesn't constitute a full deduction nor on the luggage rack.

Plus, there are LOTS of other items on these cars without GM logo and/or part number/casting number. Like fan clutches, some fans, the steering wheel and so on...

What we have is a difference of opinion on rule interpretation. We do have a standard deduction, Rule 8, that speaks to the issue of GM Approved Dealer Installed Accessories. It mandates "a small deduction will be made for any Chevorlet dealer installed accessory, such as a luggage rack, right hand rear view mirror, Etc."

The poster told us he has the bill of sale for the car and it calls out a locking gas cap. So, I'm going to PRESUME that the locking gas cap on his car is the correct/original dealer exclusive item versus some other aftermarket locking gas cap. I can't see the justification for a full deduction...

We also have Bill Mehrkens comment about the '73-74 JG. I'll elaborate. It says:

"A smooth top locking gas cap is a dealer installed option snd should receive a 30% deduction on originality". We can debate what deduction is appropriate, but here's a case of another NTL looking at the SAME part and saying it does NOT qualify for a full deduction.

That's my point, we DO have different judges interpreting our rules differently. That's a consistency problem in my book.

All I can say is if this car were Flight judged out here in Colorado, you guys took a full deduction for the locking gas cap and the owner appealed, this meet chairman would rule in favor of the owner and reverse you. This where we need a top's down advice...

As to how much the deduction should be, looking at the locking gas cap through the eyes of our matrix scoring policy it deviates from the correct factory original part in terms of Finish, Configuration and Installation. Therefore the MAX I could see as being applicable is a 60% loss on originality.

The sprit of Rule 8 is to treat these parts with a 'small deduction', so the guidance given by the '73-74 division may well be appropriate since it's half the magnitude of what would result from a standard matrix scoring evaluation...

The "guidance" you refer to in the 73-74 manual is obsolete and has been superseded by the latest Judging Reference Manual

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

My underlying thought is "It's only $25 for a repro correct appearing gas cap that looks like an original. Just buy one and move on."

But I probably shouldn't say that, right?

The judging events are, in a way, games. You play by the rules and at times try to "beat" them. The rules are subject to interpretation by the judge as well as that day's team leader and judging chair. No matter what is called out on the dealer order or invoice an owner knows that in this case he can "maximize his points" by using a gas cap different from the locking one installed by the dealer.

My car has a luggage rack. The usual deduction is between 2 and 6 points. In addition it's generally an "irreversible" dealer add-on. But, I don't argue points with judges over the rack as I know the rules and enter "the game" knowing I'm going to lose some points.

We've probably spent too much time on a gas cap. However, as I mentioned previously a larger standardized list of deductions would be beneficial for all involved.

Patrick

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I've heard there's an Eighth Edition of the JRM in the pipeline, but as of today what's in our chapter library is the 7th Edition with yellow errata sheets. So, that's all I have to go by which is the basis for my comments...

[Patrick H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I've heard there's an Eighth Edition of the JRM in the pipeline, but as of today what's in our chapter library is the 7th Edition with yellow errata sheets. So, that's all I have to go by which is the basis for my comments...

The next one will have pink errata sheets?

I'll have to admit I was a bit, um, miffed that I paid the extra $ for the 7th Ed and all I gained was the yellow sheets. You'd think that HQ would just offer a package of "yellow errata sheets" for $5 to add to the 6th Ed.

Patrick

[Terry M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I am very fortunate to have all the original paperwork for my 73 LS4 coupe. I am even more fortunate to have recently spoken with the original owner, who factory ordered the car. On his original order, a locking gas cap and undercoating are listed. The original owner confirms both. Why would the NCRS deduct for these two items when there is documentation to support they were dealer installed prior to delivery?

I have the original bill of sale for my 1970 Corvette, as well as the original window sticker, PoP, and on and on. I also purchased a locking gas cap and clear floor mats from the dealer when I took delivery of the car -- both of which show on the bill of sale.

I showed the car in NCRS -- all the way to the Duntov Mark of Excellence and a 5-star Bowtie -- as well as at Bloomington Gold to Benchmark and Gold Certification

Never once was I asked by anyone at NCRS to see any of that documentation except for the PoP as part of the glove box items. At Bloomington Gold they looked at the PoP AND the window sticker which I had attached to the side window -- although that was NOT where it was originally attached – but that is another story for another time.

Since neither the PoP nor window sticker had any listing of the floor mats or locking gas cap those items were not in/on the car when it was judged at any of those locations. The original gas cap was in very good condition because it had almost never been used, so I had no concernes about it during judging.

Judging is, as some have said, a game. The purpose is for entertainment and education. Know the rules and play by them -- you and your car will have a lot more fun that way. The person who brings a football to a baseball game usually doesn't have much fun.

If you think the rules should be changed – by all means put forth your opinion where it counts – to your regional representative and the National Judging Chairman. We can rant away here and the only purpose it serves is to vent our frustrations. That IS laudable, but does not bring about any change.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Beach balls at Baseball games can be fun.

True, it is a game; however, it can be an expensive one - specially for us on fixed incomes. I have a few other issues with my 63 which I don't intend to change even though it can be done w/o much difficulty: I have an aftermarket Stereo Radio w/ CD player and speakers (the latter two are velcro mounted). I also had the misfortune of hitting a 215 lb deer in 1992 and, although I and S.F. paid a lot to fix it like original, it is obvious because I got ripped by D & M in D.G., IL.. Other than that, the car is as I bought it new in 1963 - but few would appreciate that.

Stu Fox

[Pat M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Beach balls at Baseball games can be fun. True, it is a game; however, it can be an expensive one...
Stu Fox

And a frustrating one when you're trying your best to know the rules and play by them.
The very first time my 70 was judged in 2006 I'd made the decision to stay with my locking gas cap and take the 30% deduction as outlined by the most current manual at that time. I was not a happy camper then when I lost ALL the applicable points, despite my protest, which (along with other deductions, admittedly) nearly cost me my Top Flight.

[Terry M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I would vote for beach balls at a baseball game if I were playing -- I might be able to hit a beach ball, but I couldn't get near a baseball right now and for the near future. One-eyed baseball players don't have much fun.
Stu -- I never said it was an inexpensive game. There are different levels of play, and one can cut some corners to save some bux. And by the way, not everyone has to have their car judged. There is a lot of fun to be had at the meets without having your car judged, but this hobby is what you chose to make it.
Some of the rules are not cast in stone and sometimes may seem like a moving target, however if one remembers our judging standard -- "as it left the factory with NORMAL dealer new-car preparation, exclusive of dealer or owner inspired additions" MOST rules become clearer. It is only in trying to push that envelope that one runs into quicksand.

[Jack H.]

Re: Dealer installed items

I agree with much of what's been said (it's a game, use the rules to your advantage, 'lose' this/that for a better score), but in this specific case I do not see any justification for a full deduction. Perhaps stating the full text of Rule 8 from the Standard Deductions will help...

“8. GM Approved Dealer Installed Accessories

Because of conflict with the NCRS Judging Standard, a small deduction will be made for any Chevrolet dealer installed accessory, such as a luggage rack, right hand rear view mirror, etc., which was not available through the Corvette assembly plant, even though such an item was approved, sold and installed by the dealer as a General Motors part. These items are limited only to those listed in Chevrolet literature as being specifically available for the Corvette that are correct for the model year on which they appear, if they are installed to General Motors specifications. Proof of availability will rest with the owner.

In making the point deduction, the judge will take into consideration the extent to which the addition of the accessory alters the component or subassembly to which the accessory is affixed. For example, the addition of a dealer installed luggage rack results in holes in the rear deck fiberglass area. Point deductions for the missing fiberglass will be scored on the appropriate line item of the exterior score sheet. The amount of points deducted for these items may be specified in the respective Technical Information Manual & Judging Guide.”


That said, note the use of the term 'any' when it comes to defining dealer accessory items and the 'Etc.' after the specific examples of luggage rack and RH mirror. I don't think it gets much clearer...judges who take full deductions for this item are wrong.


Now, perhaps Dick Whittington knows this rule has been redacted in the yet to be released 8th edition of the JRM, but that's not in effect yet to my knowledge and we're talking about scoring practices many admit they've participated in in years past when this rule WAS in effect. So, my vote is with the guidance given by the '73-74 JG book.

[Terry M.]

Re: Dealer installed items

Jack that is all well and good for those items which can not be easily removed (luggage rack and side view mirror), but why on earth would anyone want to have the same debate we are having here when they are on the judging field, for an item which can be removed in less time than it took any one of us to type our message?

I vote for the full deduction for gross stupidity if those easily removed items are present. Remove the floor mats, dealer installed compass and locking gas cap, and none of this will matter. You will not have to worry about whether the deduction is 30% or 100%. You all did like I did and retained your original gas cap, right? Or is that the real issue, and we are just dancing around it?

[Dick W.]

Re: Dealer installed items

The judges were told to ignore the guidance for deductions as published in the Judging Guides at least 10 years ago Jack.