Engine Storage with ATF

[Steven B.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Hi Steven:

I mention that because I found water in the oil pan of my '65 one spring: a lot more than a few drops. I don't subscribe to the "change the oil before you store it" because I drive the '65 only a few hundred miles a year. There is no contamination in the oil in the fall, but there might be water in the oil in the spring due to condensation. After installing the new oil in the spring I used to pull the plugs and spin the engine to get oil pressure before firing it; I got too lazy to do that, now I just fire it up. No problems.

That same spring I pulled the intake manifold before starting the engine, and found rivers of rust in the intake ports and puddles of rust on the intake valves.

I eliminated 90% of the condensation problem by heating the attached garage in the spring and the fall. (I judge the level of condensation problem by watching the disc brake rotors.)

Bill

Bill, I check humidity by the calipers also. Easiest way to do it.

Pulling the plugs and hitting the starter has the same result oiling as pulling the distributor and using the drill method-correct? If so, this seems alot quicker and easier, IF the shielding is off.

Steve

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Are these engines test fired prior to storage? Test firing will coat all internal surfaces with oil, and API certified oils have corrosion inhibitors/acid neutralizers, which remain active.

These are active, in service engines that are typically used as short term loaners, rentals or lease engines so they are not new from production by any means.

As considerable time may pass from date of removal to date of entry into storage, a conservative approach must be adopted especially for engine last used in a tropical, semi tropical or marine environment.

For clarification, the engines in question are gas turbines, not piston type. I do realize that the oil formulations differ considerably but was speaking more in terms of common elements for storage best practices.

[Duke W.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Thanks for the tip Duke! I assume the oil will adhere to the surfaces for years and years. Is one weight oil better than another to use when doing this?

Also, I see the Z-Max commercials on TV and on Two Guys Garage. Is this stuff any good or hype?

Thanks!

Steve

Yes. No. I've already answered.

Duke

[Bill M.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Pulling the plugs and hitting the starter has the same result oiling as pulling the distributor and using the drill method-correct? If so, this seems alot quicker and easier, IF the shielding is off.

Steve

Steve:

I just look for full oil pressure on the gauge. My cars don't have shielding; shielding might make it tougher.

Bill

[Bill M.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

The BEST way of storing an engine is drained dry of all fluids and stored in low humidity (<40%)

My comments come from many years in the aircraft engine business and being personally responsible for a fleet of over 1,000 engines that frequently transit in and out of storage.

Residual oil left in an engine after usage may already contain an unacceptable amount of acid, or the type of oil (synthetics) used may tend to become more acidic during storage by reacting to water absorbed from the atmosphere. I believe that both Mobil and Shell mention this characteristic in their literature.

In any case, since there is no benefit to leaving oil in an engine from a preservation point of view, the SOP is now to drain the engine dry prior to being placed in storage. The drained oil of course can be used in other engines if it is still suitable.

The second point and far more important than residual oil, is ensuring that the ambient humidity be kept as low as possible. 40% relative humidity is an acceptable threshold.

Of course, all this flies in the face of the myths believers who insist on taking their car out of a warm garage in mid winter and letting the engine run in the driveway for 15 minutes.......

Hi Michael:

I've been thinking about this; here's what my Michigan experience came up with:

I think we agree that humidity (lack of) is most of the answer to corrosion-free storage.

On draining all fluids: I would never drain my coolant and expose the cast iron coolant passages to air (even dry air). I'm assuming the aircraft engines are all aluminum or magnesium? Are they air cooled? I don't see much advantage to draining the old oil from my pan. I haven't seen pan damage due to acid, but I do change the oil yearly and don't drive the car much. Would you expect acidic oil sitting in the pan to damage internal engine components? Bearings, aluminum components?

I agree that pulling you car out of a warm garage and running it isn't a good idea. But if you have to store a car here in Michigan at ambient, it may be a good idea. Here's why: I had to store my '59 in an apartment parking lot for 2 winters (1971-1973). I didn't start it. When I went to start it, the engine was seized. I had to drag the '59 behind the daily driver, and let the '59 clutch out to break the engine free. I probably shoulda started it regularly to keep the bores and rings from getting rusty. Incidentally, I yanked that engine and stored the bare block in my heated garage for 27 years and there is very light rust on the bores; not enough to seize it!

Bill

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Bill,

I think you're reading things into my post that are not there. The OP's topic was storing uninstalled engines long term, not winter preservation outdoors of an entire car.

An uninstalled engine would not typically have coolant in it and keeping the passages damp with water would just encourage corrosion not reduce it. I am not suggesting that anyone should rain the coolant during winter, simply that keeping the oil pan full has no value in reducing corrosion in the engine.

As to your case of engine seizing, I can't really comment other than to think that the environment must have been relatively humid.
For reference, I live in Quebec where the winters are considerably colder than yours but much drier. I've never had an engine seize during storage of any type in the past 35 years.

[Bill M.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Bill,

I think you're reading things into my post that are not there. The OP's topic was storing uninstalled engines long term, not winter preservation outdoors of an entire car.

An uninstalled engine would not typically have coolant in it and keeping the passages damp with water would just encourage corrosion not reduce it. I am not suggesting that anyone should rain the coolant during winter, simply that keeping the oil pan full has no value in reducing corrosion in the engine.

Michael:

Here's the quote from the OP: "if engines are not going to be installed or ran for months or even years"

I have no way of knowing if you were referring to only oil...still don't know. (I am assuming that an aircraft engine wouldn't be cast iron, and that draining coolant might make sense for an alloy engine.) I would assume from your post that they should drain the coolant. I quote: "The BEST way of storing an engine is drained dry of all fluids and stored in low humidity "

My comments relate to storing of Corvette engines in various conditions (outdoors, unheated garage, heated garage).

All I'm trying to do here is pass along some hard-earned lessons to folks storing their toys for extended periods in an area of the country where condensation is a big problem.

Bill

[Bill B.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Bill, I check humidity by the calipers also. Easiest way to do it.

Pulling the plugs and hitting the starter has the same result oiling as pulling the distributor and using the drill method-correct? If so, this seems alot quicker and easier, IF the shielding is off.

Steve

Steve - removing the distributor and using the drill method allows oil to be pumped before any reciprocating parts move. The starter method cranks dry all reciprocating parts for many turns before the oil is introduced, 'dry starting'. Thus is the old saying that start ups cause more wear on internal engine parts then any other time.
Your method of removing the spark plugs will speed up the process but will have the same initial dry starting effect.
It all depends on how long the engine was dormant, if it was a few weeks, regular starting is fine. If a month, well I would use the drill method. But thats just my opinion.

Bill

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

All I'm trying to do here is pass along some hard-earned lessons to folks storing their toys for extended periods in an area of the country where condensation is a big problem.

Bill

Same here- the key is low humidity.

Being that turbine engines have no secondary external cooling system of any type, the analogy doesn't really read across. However my comment still applies, an engine with dry cooling system stored in a dry enviroment will not corrode.

What the two engines types do share in common is fuel and oil. Leaving old oil or old fuel in any type of engine is not of benefit.

[Bill M.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Being that turbine engines have no secondary external cooling system of any type, the analogy doesn't really read across. However my comment still applies, an engine with dry cooling system stored in a dry enviroment will not corrode.

What the two engines types do share in common is fuel and oil. Leaving old oil or old fuel in any type of engine is not of benefit.

Agree...Thanks for clarifying!

[Bill M.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Steve - removing the distributor and using the drill method allows oil to be pumped before any reciprocating parts move. The starter method cranks dry all reciprocating parts for many turns before the oil is introduced, 'dry starting'. Thus is the old saying that start ups cause more wear on internal engine parts then any other time.
Your method of removing the spark plugs will speed up the process but will have the same initial dry starting effect.
It all depends on how long the engine was dormant, if it was a few weeks, regular starting is fine. If a month, well I would use the drill method. But thats just my opinion.

Bill

Hi Bill:

The cylinder walls are lubricated by high pressure oil coming from squirt holes in the connecting rod caps. I think the engine has to be turning for those to lubricate the walls properly. This method of pressurized cylinder wall lubrication was chosen specifically to reduce cold engine wear.

I guess to be really thorough, I would use the oiler to pressurize the system and lube the cam, spin the engine without firing to lube the walls, then fire her up. Nah. I just start it.

Bill

[Jim S.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Does this make sense? When I store my Corvette for the winter in Michigan I always tape baggies over the exhaust pipes and cover the carburator in plastic as well. The reason is that on a V8 engine there is always one cylinder where the intake and exhaust valves are both open. This allows air to move up the exhaust pipe(s); into that one cylinder; and up through the carburator. That is why a "frozen" engine usually has only one cylinder that is rusted.

This is an awfully easy thing to do before storage.

Jim

[John H.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Also, I see the Z-Max commercials on TV and on Two Guys Garage. Is this stuff any good or hype?

Thanks!

Steve

Check the link below for the consent decree with the FTC on Z-Max, which they continue to violate; another prosecution is pending right now (Carroll Shelby's 401(k) must have tanked again).

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm

[John N.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Check the link below for the consent decree with the FTC on Z-Max, which they continue to violate; another prosecution is pending right now (Carroll Shelby's 401(k) must have tanked again).

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2001/02/zmax1.shtm

John
Is this how Carroll paid for his name on the NASCAR Los Vegas race?
Regards

[Michael W.]

Re: Engine Storage with ATF

Does this make sense? ........

This is an awfully easy thing to do before storage.

Jim

If you're saying that there's a risk of a cylinder seizing due to airborne moisture, you might want a to pick a better place to store your car.

Even if your 'easy thing to do' was effective, what about the rest of the car? It's bound to corrode too.......................

There's some guy in Michigan named Hinckley (but not the one that shot your sheriff) who follows the same hurry up and do nothing winter storage regimen that I do. He has no problems, so what are you other guys doing to poor cars?