How have judging standards changed?

[Michael W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Also restamping was not accepted and was a full deduct. Today a detected restamp can still score points.

Say what Gene? Can you explain before this turns into yet more internet myth.

[Dick W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Undetectable restamping was accepted. Detectable restamping deductions were left up to the individual judges, some were reasonably lenient, some were brutal on their deductions. This is one of the reasons that the deductions are now standardized

[Michael H.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Undetectable restamping was accepted.

Hmmmm... wouldn't that kinda be an oxymoron, like "jumbo shrimp" and "happily married"?

If a restamp is undetectable, wouldn't it classify as a "stamp" and not a restamp, cuz ya can't tell it's a restamp?

Ok, sorry. I'll go back to my room now.

[Dick W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Sorta Michael, but some cars were known stamps, but if they were visibly undetectable by the standards then, they got a pass

[Roy S.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Guys you can bounce this around until the end of time. Yes some judging standards have changed, none have intentionally been increased and none have intentionally been decreased other than the balance between classes for specific items which you never discuss because it was changed so there is little to no balance difference today. Yes they have been fine tuned and more direction has been provided so that the application can be more specific, some seem rather harsh but with the system we use it is necessary to maintain the integrity of the award structure. For every change made there is a upside and a downside, they all get weighed by the team leaders before changes are made, you will read about a new addition to the standard deduction in the next judging chairman’s message an item you would think did not need to even be discussed but in reality with our system the change is a necessary evil, to maintain the integrity of the awards. I’m not interested in sour grapes from a disgruntled judge that thinks he knows everything and is the best in existence; his peers will determine that by his selection for a team or his rejection. It is that simple, the team leaders know who gets good marks on the owners judge evaluation form and they know how to destinguish between actual viable remarks and sour grape remarks from an upset owner. Michael Hansen is correct if an engine stamp is not detectable as a re stamp the judge is not going to know it is a re stamp, if it is detectable a deduction should be made, rumor, hearsay, innuendo are not acceptable reasons for a deduction. The pad deduction has not changed in some 20 plus years yes it has been sub divided if you will from 88 to 38 and 50 (that fifty in years after mid sixty is 25 & 25) in reality 20 years ago some did not understand what broach marks were so it was hard to decduct for their abscence, today most mechanical judges understand. This thread has certainly strayed from the original request, I believe this thread asked initially if I’m not mistaken “I was just wondering how a c2 car that was judged in the early 90's and received a national Top Flight, Bloomington Gold and a Duntov would likely fare in today's judging? (Assuming it was still in pretty much the same condition). Anybody have an idea what areas of the car might see some different opinions than it got earlier, or where the earlier standards might be more (or less) severe?” The answer is if the engine judges in 1990 were competent and did an acceptable job, if the body did not have any chopper glass panels that went undetected, if it does not have detectable added options, and if the trim tag is real. Assuming no major items have been changed it would or should do fairly well. If it was a 97.0 it might not do that today, if it was a 99.0 it probably will do that today, if it was in between it just depends on the individual pieces that caused the issues back in 1990. The judges today are better educated, don’t doubt that, the manuals today are better manuals don’t doubt that, the system is better defined today don’t doubt that. Is it perfect no and it never will be.

[Ron L.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

After reading a few recent posts, I was just wondering how a c2 car that was judged in the early 90's and received a national Top Flight, Bloomington Gold and a Duntov would likely fare in today's judging? (Assuming it was still in pretty much the same condition). Anybody have an idea what areas of the car might see some different opinions than it got earlier, or where the earilier standards might be more (or less) severe?


Thanks, Mike

This is the mother of all pot stirring questions.

[Michael W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Sorta Michael, but some cars were known stamps, but if they were visibly undetectable by the standards then, they got a pass

As is still the case today..........

[Michael H.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Sorta Michael, but some cars were known stamps, but if they were visibly undetectable by the standards then, they got a pass

When I was the "Stamp Pad Judge" at Bloomington years ago, we were told to judge what we inspected that day, not what we knew about any history of the car/block. That made it tough but I suppose it was the most logical way to do it.
As unlikely as it may be, the owner can claim that he "found the original block" after we inspected the car at the last event.

If the pad and characters are within guidelines, even if I knew it was hammered, I had to accept it.

[Michael W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Cranky,

Todays' judging guidelines instruct us to disregard prior knowledge of the car, so again I do not follow the comment that restamps can get any credit

Mike(y)

[Michael G.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

No "pot stirring" intended (well, maybe a little).

Thank you all for your replies. I asked the question because I am considering buying such a car. I wouldn't mind freshening it to acheive today's standards, but I was hoping to get a car which was already proven basicly correct and wouldn't require a major overhaul.

4) paint 5) body replacement panels.

Please let me know if there's something I missed.

Thanks again, Mike

[Michael W.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Please let me know if there's something I missed.

Yes- cars are not evaluated for authenticity in Flight Judging.

As discussed above, a stamp pad could in actual fact be a 100% restamp on a block that had never seen the car till yesterday. To a lesser degree, the trim tag could be an excellent repo.

A car that started out as a no-option with base motor car could now be a high HP with all the desired options.

Flight Judging should never be used as the sole criteria for establishing the credibility of a car.

[Terry M.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Remember the award the car achieved was valid only at the time and place it was judged. Any part may have been changed following that judging -- as someone said above. When I was Team Leader I observed several cars which had obtained a given award struggle to get that same award under new ownership. Not all the parts changed hands with the car.
You still have to do due diligence when buying the car. You are buying a car, not an award.

[Michael G.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Thanks guys.

I don't think there's any doubt about the authenticity of the car (there is much verifiable documentation and complete owner history). I was most concerned with whether the parts that were judged in 1991-2 would still pass muster in 2009. The possibility that some of those "original" parts might now be on other cars had not occurred to me, but I'm sure it's a real concern, given the number of years that have passed and the broad spectrum of people dealing in these cars. Anything is possible with these cars, if it turns a profit.

I also understand clearly that trim tags and/or pad could have been faked in 1991, to make a documented car more "perfect"...and judging would not necessarily point this out....Perhaps sodium pentathol might help sort it all out. Where the heck do I get it....

In any case, i appreciate everyone's comments, it'll help me make a more informed decision.

Thanks, Mike

[Jean C.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Mike,
You have not mentioned where the car you are interested in is located...dry climate vs. humid. I can guarantee you that if the car is in a humid environment, even if garaged since the early 90's but on a concrete floor, you are going to see evidence of deterioration of the chassis components. Been there done that with a National Top Flight, Bloomington Gold car. Perhaps it was Sir Issac Newton who said "Anything that can rust, will rust." Maybe not, but I'm sure someone said it. Deterioration of this type can be corrected...only requires time and/or money. Aside from the issue of judges' skill then vs. now, as others have already said, your primary concern should be that the car has the same parts now as when it Top Flighted.
Best regards,

[Ron L.]

Re: How have judging standards changed?

Thanks guys.

I don't think there's any doubt about the authenticity of the car (there is much verifiable documentation and complete owner history). I was most concerned with whether the parts that were judged in 1991-2 would still pass muster in 2009. The possibility that some of those "original" parts might now be on other cars had not occurred to me, but I'm sure it's a real concern, given the number of years that have passed and the broad spectrum of people dealing in these cars. Anything is possible with these cars, if it turns a profit.

I also understand clearly that trim tags and/or pad could have been faked in 1991, to make a documented car more "perfect"...and judging would not necessarily point this out....Perhaps sodium pentathol might help sort it all out. Where the heck do I get it....

In any case, i appreciate everyone's comments, it'll help me make a more informed decision.

Thanks, Mike

If the parts were the real deal back then....I dont see how youd lose anything, unless they rusted or its an item prone to wear. On the other hand youre talking 18 years of experience and further education of people, its only natural the bar may have been raised a little. So if you got away with anything back then, and im not saying you did or tried to, chances are youre gonna get busted.

I did a top flite on a 63 back about that time ('90's) and the fellow running the show on my car was very nice, but you werent getting squat past that guy. He knew every nut and bolt. I think his name was Carlton. Ive been out of NCRS for a long time until recently, so my memory is shaky, but I remember what I learned from that cat.... ALOT!

Best I remember it was all about originality, so if it was original then...its original now. right?