Classic Engine Company

[Jason S.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

What you really mean is that you think your Corvette has the original block & should be worth more than ones that don't. It is you that its all about the money & bragging rights. I think you should start the 100% born with parts Corvette club although don't think you can get many members beside yourself that has one of these cars.

I agree there wouldn't be many people out there that haven't had to chase down date coded water pumps, fuel pumps, seat belts with the "correct" webbing and labels, exhaust tips with the "correct' weld line, etc...etc. during their restorations. Even "Original, Low Mileage" cars have had to have SOMETHING serviced over the years - perhaps it was something as small as belts, hoses, spark plugs.......but I doubt many - if any - cars have 100.00% of their original parts on them. It all depends on where some people draw the line......I'm starting to think talking about stamp pads in these forums is like trying to talk about politics or religion at a dinner party......

Ken, I think you bring up a good point - regarding the value debate that has crept in here.
I have said I have no profit motive - I'm correcting things if they are coming out of the car anyway, while I'm "already there" for other reasons. With that said.........consider the hypothetical situation:

3 cars are sitting side-by-side. All 3 are Identical years and options.
The first and 2nd cars have the EXACT same content/level of date coded parts, the third car is a "budget" restoration with NAPA parts, and whatever cross-compatible parts from whatever model year was available.
Owner #1 has the original build sheet and window sticker proving his stamp pad is correct. He can say "this car is original and documented".
Owner #2 does not have the paperwork.....all he can say is "this car is all date code correct"....he cannot say "this is all original".
The 3rd owner....like I said, didn't make the effort to pay for and chase any "correct" or dated parts.

I AM owner #2. IF I ever decided to sell, I shouldn't expect the same value that Owner #1 should be able to achieve....but shouldn't I be rewarded with a value higher than owner #3, who didn't even bother making his (or her) car correct at all?

So.....while I say I have no profit motive, I do believe the extra effort and cash outlay SHOULD make my car more valuable. Why SHOULDN'T it?

[Eric E.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

This thread has been interesting and a bit troubling to follow. Over the last 20 years I have seen the number of not only original cars but also actual cars grow. And it is hard to label the intent of one owner vs another.

Some truths,
A matching numbers car does not equal an original car.
C1 cars can be whatever the restorer wants them to be due to lack of build sheets and factory records.
The goal of most in this hobby are to be as thorough as possible even to the point of insanity.
Parts are modified to be a Corvette part even if they started their life in a pass car or truck.
Many, many items are recreated and used that are date stamped because of condition and proves that beauty is sometimes more important to some than originality.

All of these combined items can increase the value of a car and all cars will eventually belong to someone else and the histories get a bit foggy as they change hands.

The engine pad issue (and C2 trim tags) is one that the barn door has already been open for a long time and is the "political/religious" hot button that causes this type of a debate. Many NOM matching number of cars are already out there and will likely continue.

Its interesting how, for example a nice, mostly original car is looked at with a squint that has a NOM or a questioned pad while a car that has the original motor and a "highly" repaired and restored chassis is given the thumbs up.

I am not saying what is right or wrong for everyone but down the road most of our cars cross this originality line in one way or another.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Well Kenneth if you did a little research you would know my current 62 has a Tremec 5 speed and a 383 crate motor that gets about 7 to 8 thousand miles put on it every year and I live in Northern Ohio. I've done the all original routine, it was fun, but prefer a driver I can get out and actually drive somewhere besides the grocery store and have a heart attack if it gets a stone chip. And Michael if the car is a driver with all kinds of aftermarket stuff on it, why would you want motor like that, any V-8 would work. By the way nice to know you don't need the money!!!!!

I should NOT have used the word you. I should have used "a person" when describing someone that thinks that because they think they have a original block others should not use a restoration one. Sorry I misspoke.

[Loren S.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Let's be clear here, the engine in question is in a car that now has disc brakes, air conditioning, rack and pinion power steering, a Tremec trans, a hydraulic clutch, electronic fuel injection, electric fuel pump, the wrong color interior and paint, and a reproduction frame. Where exactly am I gaining anything with a this particular stamp here? The VIN is too shallow and the broach marks are clearly not discontinuous, so even the pad is clearly a repro. If anyone were to have this thing judged, Dr. Mikey would pick up the broach mark discrepancy in one second and that would be the least of the judging problems.

Frankly, I don't need the money to ever sell it. I could crush it, if I felt like it and it wouldn't bother me a bit. Moreover, I also have a 99.2 point two-time Duntov 1963 Fuelie, with a genuine, documented, original engine, why would I need to fake anything on this 63 driver car? I could give a crap about bragging rights. I posted the pad so you could see Tom's work, period.

Jeeeeze, ease up. Life's too short.

I was actually going to compliment you on how nice the pad looked, that is a cool touch for a restified car.

[Gene M.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

I was actually going to compliment you on how nice the pad looked, that is a cool touch for a restified car.

Nice yes. Correct no.

[Michael G.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Nice yes. Correct no.

Must be that black rectangle, I forgot that blackout is not permitted in 63....

[Jason S.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Ohhh. I'm glad this was brought up just now. I was asking my stamping guy to try and replicate the same shade of black shown in your picture and he didn't know what I was talking about.

[Michael G.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Electrical tape works really well, but don't tell anyone...

[Donald O.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Is there a specific brand of black electrical tape? Which one has the closest gloss level to an original?

Don

[Michael W.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

If anyone believes they are in a moral dilemma of wanting to restore their car as completely and accurately as possible for NCRS Flight Judging but does not to be seen as a counterfeiter, there is a simple solution.

Have the pad rebroached and restamped as best as is possible and have the word 'restamped' or 'reproduction' stamped somewhere on the pad where it will not obscure any of the other stamped features. The judging rules only specify that some of the typical broaching marks remain, not 'all'. No deduction will ensue if the judges follow this principal.

Such a car will also not miraculously become an untouched virgin down the road after it's changed owners a few times.

[Gene M.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

If anyone believes they are in a moral dilemma of wanting to restore their car as completely and accurately as possible for NCRS Flight Judging but does not to be seen as a counterfeiter, there is a simple solution.

Have the pad rebroached and restamped as best as is possible and have the word 'restamped' or 'reproduction' stamped somewhere on the pad where it will not obscure any of the other stamped features. The judging rules only specify that some of the typical broaching marks remain, not 'all'. No deduction will ensue if the judges follow this principal.

Such a car will also not miraculously become an untouched virgin down the road after it's changed owners a few times.

That is a good idea. And to be sure that it is followed a full deduction will be mandated if detected as a stamper if the word 'restamped' or 'reproduction' is not stamped somewhere on the pad. Characters of say 1/16" minimum size and as deep as the rest of the ID stampings would suffice. Works good for anything new, BUT needs some real hard thought to cover the stuff all ready out there thats been thru the system.

[Michael G.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

That's a very good idea, Mike, I'd think NCRS should make it a policy to give full credit to any correctly reproduced pad marked "reproduction" or "re-stamped" as well as extremely rigorously scrutinizing any pads that lack such designation.

[Michael W.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

I'm not sure any change is needed to the rules. The pad features should still be judged on their own merits irrespective of whether any other information denoting it being a restoration effort has been added .

The idea was to avoid the stigma of being a counterfeiter on one hand, and on the other to eliminate the justification for stamping a pad strictly for judging purposes.

[Michael G.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

I agree, Mike, that's its within the rules today. I'm only suggesting that a possible change might be to add a note in the judging guides validating that its acceptable, even perhaps, preferred, to mark a "restamp" that way, as there might be those novices who, for lack of information or "permission" to prepare their pad with "restamped" or "reproduction", might feel they need to stick with the old methods...

While there are undoubtedly restamps done solely for resale value, I'm guessing that many, many restamps are there only because its widely thought that judging requires a pad that is marked only the way it left the factory. Perhaps I'm naive, but I'd like to think that most of our members are essentially honest people who would gladly comply with the revised pad idea.

[Jason S.]

Re: Classic Engine Company

Consider this hypothetical then:
I have a read deal block, heads, carb, intake, exhaust manifolds, water pump, and fuel pump. But I have a repro (but correct) chrome air cleaner and a couple repro pieces of ignition shielding that replaced pieces that had gone missing.
Would we then have to start stamping something like "RP" on each of these parts to denote ReProduction rather than original? How about "correct" bolts with the right head markings - would we also have to stamp "RP" right next to the "TR" head marks to denote where the original/reused bolts are rather than what had been replaced with new? Stamp "RP" on new hose clamps? Stencil on "RP" in paint right next to the GM part numbers on "date correct" hoses? Stamp an "RP" on the steering wheel spoke if we have a repro wheel rather than an NOS part? Where would this end?
Now I think we are starting to get just a tad too caught up in all of this, IMO.............

If the sticking point in this thread is over the value of a car after a potential re-stamp, rather than whether people have been trying to replicate the authenticity of a car in "good faith" (however that would be defined) - a potential buyer of a restored car should always fall back on "common sense" regarding the price that is paid for a car. Heck.....Even an all-original car may have had to get the deck machined during a rebuild in the '70s or '80s where the numbers came off.......if there is any doubt a stamp is NOT original, revert to whether the car has paperwork like a window sticker. With paperwork, a car's stamp legitimacy can be backed up, whereas without paperwork, it should always be questioned. A car with "paperwork" proving it's pedigree should ALWAYS be worth more than a car without. But also, a car without paperwork, restored all-date-code-correct, should also be worth more than a car that was simply rebuilt with incorrect NAPA parts.