Crossed Flags Award Questions

[Pat M.]

Hi everyone.
I've read in Crossed Flags judging (after getting the McLellan/Hill award) a C4 must have a 90% pass (originality,significance) in each section. But 90% of what? Are there points for each part, kinda like in Flight judging, and you must get 90% of the total alotted points? Or is each item pass/fail, and 90% of the parts in each section must pass?
Also, what is the standard for an original-to-that-car part that has been removed and reinstalled? I've read something along the lines of "even a wrench mark raises suspicion" about the part. Yet, I assume a part does not automatically fail just because it appears to have been removed, correct?
Finally, does a C4 need to be pre-judged, like a "Bowtie candidate" ?
Thanks

[Kevin G.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Easily put Cross Flags is the equivalent to the Bowtie for the earlier generations. The percent is related to originality. As far as I understand?
Kevin

[Jack H.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

What Kevin's saying is we have basically two judging categories at NCRS: (1) restored cars and (2) unrestored cars. For restored cars, we call the system Flight Judging and there we consider both the originality and the condition of the car's components.

For un-restored cars (Star/Bowtie is name of program for early Corvettes and Crossed Flag is the program for late model Corvettes), the yardstick is EXCLUSIVELY originality. The condition of individual components means nothing because the objective of the award/recognition is to preserve the car's factory originality profile for educational and research purposes.

So, there are different score sheets and different judging approaches between the restored vs. un-restored car evaluations....

[Robert C.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

See the NCRS judging Awards discription above. If the line item, in the judges minds, passes the 90% originality score, then that part passes. etc etc ....

[Terry M.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Not quite Bob.

Each line is a pass or fail, based -- as Jack states -- exclusively on originality.

90% of the lines must pass.

We could have had this discussion over lunch, Pat.

Good luck this weekend.

[Pat M.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Thanks guys. I knew Bowtie and Crossed Flags were for unrestored cars, and that this judging was uniquely focused on originality, but I didn't know how it was determined whether each section reached a 90% "pass". Apparently, each part in each section is pass/fail, and 90% of the parts in each section must pass.
Any ideas about parts removal/replacing, and pre-judging?

[Pat M.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Not quite Bob.

Each line is a pass or fail, based -- as Jack states -- exclusively on originality.

90% of the lines must pass.

We could have had this discussion over lunch, Pat.

Good luck this weekend.

You're right, Terry. We should have discussed it over lunch - and one or two beers! Maybe next time. Thanks for the clarification.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Thanks guys. I knew Bowtie and Crossed Flags were for unrestored cars, and that this judging was uniquely focused on originality, but I didn't know how it was determined whether each section reached a 90% "pass". Apparently, each part in each section is pass/fail, and 90% of the parts in each section must pass.
Any ideas about parts removal/replacing, and pre-judging?

Pat, By pre judging your refering to a "sign off" by the team leader, that will need to be address by someone else but I believe that it is needed.

Based on my experience within the Bowtie process parts can not be removed and replaced.
"Does the item, part, fabric, plating or coating appear to actually be that which was specifically installed or applied on this car at the time of manufacture".

Prerequisite,award is available to 1984 and newer Corvette currently judged by NCRS that has received a NCRS McLellan Mark of Excellence award

Kevin

[Pat M.]

Crossed Flags Award Questions

Good to hear from you again, Kevin.
By pre-judging I mean having the car looked over at a meet to determine if it's even close enough to go through the ultimate Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging. Isn't that what's done to the Bowtie "candidate" cars I see?
As for parts removal, removing and replacing the very same part would still make it the part "installed and applied by the factory", wouldn't it?

[Stephen B.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

I just went through Cross Flag judging at St. Charles. Each section has a number of specific items to inspect for a Pass/Fail for originality. You must pass 90% on each section to obtain the award. No one, two or three starts like Bowtie.

I passed three sections and failed one by one point. No award, and the car can't be judged again ever.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Good to hear from you again, Kevin.
By pre-judging I mean having the car looked over at a meet to determine if it's even close enough to go through the ultimate Bowtie/Crossed Flags judging. Isn't that what's done to the Bowtie "candidate" cars I see?
As for parts removal, removing and replacing the very same part would still make it the part "installed and applied by the factory", wouldn't it?

Pat,
Take a close look at the McLellan Award and it's requirements............

This award was created by the National Corvette Restorers Society in 1997, in honor of Mr. David R McLellan, long-time Chief Engineer for the Chevrolet Corvette, who retired from General Motors in 1996. The McLellan Award recognizes individuals for the restoration and preservation of 1975 -1993 Corvettes.. To achieve this coveted award, an owner must first attain a judging score of at least 97% out of 100 based on an original "as manufactured" standard at a National or Regional NCRS event; as well as present the car for a rigorous performance test of all vehicle mechanical components and functions, all of which must operate as those of a new car, without a single failure. Finally, the car must again score at least 97%, at a National NCRS Convention, to receive the McLellan Award. The process of achieving the McLellan Award requires attendance at a minimum of three events, and must be completed within a three year period. As of end of the 2007 season, only 75 Corvettes have achieved the McLellan Mark of Excellence. Dave McLellan has personally awarded the special plaque bearing his name at our annual NCRS National Convention.

At the end of this process it's been seen by many, again I can only answer from my experience from the Bowtie process. The judges/team leader will know if it's a Cross Flag canidate or unrestored example.

Can someone else answer if a "sgn off" is needed?
Nice to speak with you too!
Kevin

[Michael W.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

As for parts removal, removing and replacing the very same part would still make it the part "installed and applied by the factory", wouldn't it?

Evidence of a part having being removed is not an automatic show stopper- it can simply mean that 'a closer look' by the judges may be required.

There's also varying degrees of parts having being removed and replaced; a replaced distributor cap does not have the same significance as a replaced rear axle assembly (for instance).

[Pat M.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Mike, your analysis sure seems to me to be in keeping with the literal language of the award, which merely requires that a part be the one "installed or applied at the time of manufacture" (not "by the factory" as I erroneously quoted earlier). To me, removing and reinstalling the very same part still meets this criteria. Otherwise, simply removing the wheels to change the tires would result in the failure of the wheels.
I appreciate all of the responses.

[Joe C.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Thanks guys. I knew Bowtie and Crossed Flags were for unrestored cars, and that this judging was uniquely focused on originality, but I didn't know how it was determined whether each section reached a 90% "pass". Apparently, each part in each section is pass/fail, and 90% of the parts in each section must pass.
Any ideas about parts removal/replacing, and pre-judging?

Team leader must "sign-off" in order to designate a Crossed Flags candidate Corvette. This is currently, a relatively informal verbal process, whereby the team leader, who is already very familiar with the candidate Corvette, gives his "blessings" to the owner to make his car available for Crossed Flags judging.
Crossed Flags Award is extremely difficult to obtain, for the following reasons:

1. Prerequisite is McLellan Award!!!!
2. 90% originality required for Crossed Flags.

Therefore, a Crossed Flags Corvette is a car which is at least 90% original, AS WELL AS PV'd, and (about) 97% or higher CONDITION. Quite a significant and difficult accomplishment..................originality and condition, both.

[Reba W.]

Re: Crossed Flags Award Questions

Pat, why don't you go straight to the top and talk with Roy Sinor? I don't know about the Crossed Flags Award, but for Bowtie acceptance, the car must be judged at a regional meet before the team leader signs off on it.