Frame VIN transfer to another frame

[Alan T.]

I recently corresponded with a guy who is restoring a 1970 and he mentioned that the car had been hit in the front at one point and the frame was bent, so he acquired another frame to use. He later indicated that he cut out the original frame stamped VIN and welded it onto the donor frame. I do not know if that means he cut out a section of the original frame that has the VIN and welded it ("patched" it) in place of the donor frame VIN stamp, or simply welded the section on top of or over the donor frame VIN stamp or someplace else on the frame.

I do not know this gentleman personally and do not wish to second-guess his intentions for doing that, and I am not trying to raise any trouble for him. Its just that I have never heard of doing such a thing. I know donor frames are sometimes used in place of bent or rusted frames and can often be the only way to salvage an otherwise good car. But welding in the original frame VIN stamp section to the donor frame?? It raises some interesting theoretical questions as far as, is it (1) ethical and (2) legal. I guess as far as ethical issues, it depends on how later the car is tried to be passed off, whether it is disclosed the frame has been changed or not, and whether the welded in section with the original VIN stamp is tried to be passed off as original (although I can't imagine how someone would not notice). As for legality, is this along the same lines as altering a VIN tag, removing it and putting it on another frame? Interesting question, as the VIN tag is readily visible but a frame VIN stamp is not, also I don't know if the laws address altering frame VIN stamps like they do VIN tags. Just food for thought - any comments?

[Brett H.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

I'm sure that this has been done many times. The authorities cannnot police the hobby and will not even try to take this on. They'll never be able to control it in the first place.

In my opinion, it's become the don't ask, don't tell, issue of the car hobby.

[Brett H.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

I'm sure that this has been done many times. The authorities cannnot police the hobby and will not even try to take this on. They'll never be able to control it in the first place.

In my opinion, it's become the don't ask, don't tell, issue of the car hobby.

[Stephen L.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

If the frame number were welded on top of the donor frame and no attempt was made to "hide" the weld then I believe the intent was to show that this car indeed had the original frame under it (which became scrap metal) and was replaced for whatever reason (rust etc.)during a restoration/repair.
If the frame number were grafted in with an attempt to conceal that fact, then doubt is cast on the entire car. JMO.....

[Stephen L.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

If the frame number were welded on top of the donor frame and no attempt was made to "hide" the weld then I believe the intent was to show that this car indeed had the original frame under it (which became scrap metal) and was replaced for whatever reason (rust etc.)during a restoration/repair.
If the frame number were grafted in with an attempt to conceal that fact, then doubt is cast on the entire car. JMO.....

[Tom S.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

I agree with Steve !

[Tom S.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

I agree with Steve !

[Rick A.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

Steve,

you opened the floodgates - so, I am going to leap in - so, what do we do about engines? we state it is "okay" to put in a "restoration engine" and "restamp" and there is nothing wrong with this - but, how many people fess up and say it is a NOM!? and, we (NCRS) judge that car as if it had the ORIGINAL motor in it

[Rick A.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

Steve,

you opened the floodgates - so, I am going to leap in - so, what do we do about engines? we state it is "okay" to put in a "restoration engine" and "restamp" and there is nothing wrong with this - but, how many people fess up and say it is a NOM!? and, we (NCRS) judge that car as if it had the ORIGINAL motor in it

[Stephen L.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

You are correct! I guess the same analogy can be applied to a frame.

I personally feel that a restamped engine should not be considered original, but then where would it end, repo seat skins, door skins, lights, repaint, and the list is endless..... therefore that is why "Survivors" are recognized.

[Stephen L.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

You are correct! I guess the same analogy can be applied to a frame.

I personally feel that a restamped engine should not be considered original, but then where would it end, repo seat skins, door skins, lights, repaint, and the list is endless..... therefore that is why "Survivors" are recognized.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

My personal feeling on replacement frames now is it's pretty much a non-issue for me. I didn't arrive at this because I have a replacement frame...mine is the original, slick as the day it was born.

A replacement frame isn't the ideal situation when laying out big bucks for a classic Corvette, but faced with having a slick, like-new replacement frame of southwestern origin, compared to a corrosion-weakened, heavily-pitted midwestern frame with the original VIN stamp, I would rather have the replacement. Having said that, I wouldn't bother trying to alter or replace the VIN stamp on a frame...it's not visible enough to bother with in my opinion. The shallowest of "collectors" and "investors" that would worry about the originality of a frame, IN MY OPINION, may not even know where the VINs are stamped.

Regarding the ethics, Alan, I believe your take is the right one...how you present the car at time of sale will determine if you have acted ethically. Given my position on frame originality, however, I'm not sure I would make a point of disclosing the replacement...if the numbers seem that important to the seller, then I would disclose.

Legality depends on what the law requires, and I don't really know what was required at the time of manufacture, or now. Corvettes were always ahead of their time for marking every individual part for date and/or identification. For the individual owner that has replaced his own frame, no one will ever know, nor is it likely to be an issue even if he sells the car.

For the thief that is suspected of trying to pass a stolen car, and law enforcement has to resort to seldom-needed measures like checking the frame for the VIN number, alteration of a VIN number would simply mean additional charges on top of a serious felony. Otherwise, I doubt you could get much law-enforcement interest in a changed frame VIN on a 30-40 year old car. Discovery of altered VINs on a purchased car is more likely to be become a civil legal matter.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Frame VIN transfer to another frame

My personal feeling on replacement frames now is it's pretty much a non-issue for me. I didn't arrive at this because I have a replacement frame...mine is the original, slick as the day it was born.

A replacement frame isn't the ideal situation when laying out big bucks for a classic Corvette, but faced with having a slick, like-new replacement frame of southwestern origin, compared to a corrosion-weakened, heavily-pitted midwestern frame with the original VIN stamp, I would rather have the replacement. Having said that, I wouldn't bother trying to alter or replace the VIN stamp on a frame...it's not visible enough to bother with in my opinion. The shallowest of "collectors" and "investors" that would worry about the originality of a frame, IN MY OPINION, may not even know where the VINs are stamped.

Regarding the ethics, Alan, I believe your take is the right one...how you present the car at time of sale will determine if you have acted ethically. Given my position on frame originality, however, I'm not sure I would make a point of disclosing the replacement...if the numbers seem that important to the seller, then I would disclose.

Legality depends on what the law requires, and I don't really know what was required at the time of manufacture, or now. Corvettes were always ahead of their time for marking every individual part for date and/or identification. For the individual owner that has replaced his own frame, no one will ever know, nor is it likely to be an issue even if he sells the car.

For the thief that is suspected of trying to pass a stolen car, and law enforcement has to resort to seldom-needed measures like checking the frame for the VIN number, alteration of a VIN number would simply mean additional charges on top of a serious felony. Otherwise, I doubt you could get much law-enforcement interest in a changed frame VIN on a 30-40 year old car. Discovery of altered VINs on a purchased car is more likely to be become a civil legal matter.

[Michael W.]

Best read your judging manuals again

NO restamped engine is considered as original in any part of NCRS judging. If there is a deviation on the VIN stamp, machine code or pad surface, appropriate deductions are made.

[Michael W.]

Best read your judging manuals again

NO restamped engine is considered as original in any part of NCRS judging. If there is a deviation on the VIN stamp, machine code or pad surface, appropriate deductions are made.