No deduction for a 1967 restamped motor 427/435 motor at a National Judging Meet

[Mark F.]

Maybe a delicate topic here, but perhaps a previous owner willingly acknowledged the pad was a restoration…good for them if they did…no harm no foul, if so in my book.

Important, slightly reworded excerpts of what’s on Page 13 of the JRM 9^th edition state the following:

….RESTORE: “To renew; to put back into existence or bring back to a former or original state.”
The following would be examples of restorations…

• Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint
• Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with standard black interior
• Stamping a 435-HP block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435HP Corvette in which it is to be installed

Vs. “To make an imitation of something else with the intent to wrongfully deceive or defraud”
The following would be examples of that:

• Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color
• Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color interior
• Replacing the engine of an original small-block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it appear to be an original big-block engine
• Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel-injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the block to make it appear to be an original fuel-injection car

[Jeff M.]

Jeff, There is a HUGE difference between an Engine pad and a Trim tag. The Trim and VIN tags are not wear items.

I'm happy to discuss this at any time but our Judging system is what it is. Sorry to say, we can't bring our personal decisions into play. I will also say, you are mistaken about the paperwork. If someone has paperwork to back up any option on their car and it is necessary to review it with the Team Leader, that certainly can be done.

Regards, Joe

Joe, I never stated that paper couldnt be reviewed, I myself have looked at paper at Nationals while judging, I said judged as in a line item to correlate with an option, with that being said the same paper you’re saying can be reviewed would could also be used to back up the color combos with a repro tag so would work exactly the same as with horsepower, options etc.

I completely understand that the judging system is what it is, but it can also be changed and bettered.

Car A - restamp motor noted as a restamp -38 pt deduct and if had good surfacing could have been no deduct.

Car B - original engine that was light surfaced during a rebuild but both stamps still readable enough to be OEM- 38 pt deduct

the restamp is awarded the same as the OEM engine, and with a good surface 38 more pts.

It’s not a matter of personal feelings, it’s to be fair and consistent for every engine/every owner. It’s original or it’s not. Just my and many others take on it.

[Joseph S.]

Joe, I never stated that paper couldnt be reviewed, I myself have looked at paper at Nationals while judging, I said judged as in a line item to correlate with an option, with that being said the same paper you’re saying can be reviewed would could also be used to back up the color combos with a repro tag so would work exactly the same as with horsepower, options etc.

I completely understand that the judging system is what it is, but it can also be changed and bettered.

Car A - restamp motor noted as a restamp -38 pt deduct and if had good surfacing could have been no deduct.

Car B - original engine that was light surfaced during a rebuild but both stamps still readable enough to be OEM- 38 pt deduct

the restamp is awarded the same as the OEM engine, and with a good surface 38 more pts.

It’s not a matter of personal feelings, it’s to be fair and consistent for every engine/every owner. It’s original or it’s not. Just my and many others take on it.

Jeff, The standard is as it's written. There is no waver in interpretation to fit someone else's feelings or beliefs. Yes, both those engines will score the same in Flight judging and that is the proper call. Are the 2 cars equal.....no, 1 has an original engine, the other does not. Do they both score the same against the standard, yes they do. No one is being treated unfairly. Both are treated as they should be on the Judging field.

I hope everyone keeps this in mind. What happens on the Judging field is a reflection of the Day's work against the manual using the NCRS system. It is not a call for who's car is better, worth more, or what you would want in your collection. If the car is well restored and meets our standard it will get the award it deserves. Sorry for the rant!! This is the Mission of the National Judging Office!

Joe

[Michael V.]

Ever since I was 20 in 1973 and figured out not to just look at the last two letter of the engine assembly code and discovered the other numbers on the engine pad was the vin number of my split window and I would only buy a Corvette if it had the original motor. When other local people learned of this new discovery some got the shock of their life and others were happy.
I still cannot understand how a restamped motor can get the same score as an original motor under current NCRS Judging rules. The Camaro people deduct 150 points out of 350 for a restamp motor leaving some points to be earn while rewarding the original factory installed motor owner. Why cannot the NCRS take a similair approach? Equivalizing a reproduction trim emblem and a restamped motor on a restored car is puzzling to me as my experience in the last 51 is the only reason people use to re-stamp an engine is to create the illusion of originality to enhance the value of their Corvette.
Mike at 20 with 1963 corvette.jpg

[Joseph S.]

Ever since I was 20 in 1973 and figured out not to just look at the last two letter of the engine assembly code and discovered the other numbers on the engine pad was the vin number of my split window and I would only buy a Corvette if it had the original motor. When other local people learned of this new discovery some got the shock of their life and others were happy.
I still cannot understand how a restamped motor can get the same score as an original motor under current NCRS Judging rules. The Camaro people deduct 150 points out of 350 for a restamp motor leaving some points to be earn while rewarding the original factory installed motor owner. Why cannot the NCRS take a similair approach? Equivalizing a reproduction trim emblem and a restamped motor on a restored car is puzzling to me as my experience in the last 51 is the only reason people use to re-stamp an engine is to create the illusion of originality to enhance the value of their Corvette.
Mike at 20 with 1963 corvette.jpg

Michael, This is not a new approach or current standard. It is the standard. It has been in place long before the Camaro guys even knew what an engine stamp was. That being said, we are not dealing with values here. We are dealing with judging guidelines. As I stated earlier, both cars may judge the same, but one car has an original engine and the other car does not. Also, as I stated earlier again, the cars did not score the same! The car with the restoration engine received a 38 point deduction. You continue to leave that 38 point deduction out of your statements.

If you only own cars with an original engine, wear it with a badge of honor.

Regards, Joe

[Danny P.]

My 67 L71 was being Judge for Duntov at the Nationals in Mobile 2022 , i ,am still scatching my head on my Stamp Pad Judged score , the broach marks were credit full points as Apperars factory Finish as for the assembly and VIM derivative stamps even though it is noted as nice stamp Pad I got (-50 Points) how could that be, I have had many Top NCRS Stamp Judges looking at this Stamp over the years I don't want to mention any names they all said it "appearance original and good to me " I still scored a 98% and I did get the Duntov but what a wild time when the Stamp Pad was being Judge I couldn't believe what i was hearing , would'nt my Stamp Pad follow under Items "Car A & B samples by Jeff Quote ".
Car A - restamp motor noted as a restamp -38 pt deduct and if had good surfacing could have been no deduct.

Car B - original engine that was light surfaced during a rebuild but both stamps still readable enough to be OEM- 38 pt deduct

the restamp is awarded the same as the OEM engine, and with a good surface 38 more pts.

It’s not a matter of personal feelings, it’s to be fair and consistent for every engine/every owner. It’s original or it’s not. Just my and many others take on it.

[Jeff M.]

Danny, let me clarify that I posted those examples as reasons why this system of giving partial credit to a pad when you know it’s a restamp, is NOT a good practice and the pad should be judged as a whole all or nothing, OEM or not! The current way creates a lot of confusion for car owner which is why this thread was started and has over 2000 views, and why the BAT Auction had all of the comments that it did

Let me say that I’m still confused as well. Literally in this thread it has been posted by the NJC that the judging process isn’t about VALUE or car worth, yet we all woke up to an email this morning where the slogan at the top with the NCRS logo was “Welcome to the NCRS where VALUE is created”.

The value that the Top Flight does create is why that call is so important. It can’t be both ways!

[Don H.]

Mr. Meadows, I know you are a very experienced judge at 200 level, in your nearly 16 years in the club, and you've clearly formed some ideas about how Flight judging should work in that time.. But I must say I'm surprised to see you announce on our website that the methods that have been developed over now 50 years are wrong, and you know how to make them right.. And our new NJC's repeated explanations of the rhyme and reason for judging engines the NCRS way makes no sense to you. Some of the most knowledgeable people in the classic Corvette hobby developed the methods and promoted them in their roles as previous NJCs. And those methods are not good practice in your view.. I think this thread has reached a point where no more need be said.. Minds are made up and people will just have to agree to disagree about NCRS Flight judging engines.. Please have the final word, after which I will close this thread.

[Jeff M.]

Mr Hooper, everyone has the right to their opinion. I pay my dues and have volunteered and spent my own money traveling and judging at the highest level of this organization just as the people who disagree. As a mechanical judge on engines I have to sign my name to that sheet and it never goes away. Over those last 50 years you mention, lots of things have changed in regards to importance/ value of an OEM engine in a Corvette, just as they have changed regarding trim tags. So comments about the way the engine pad is judged and its importance isn’t showing disrespect to the current NJC or any of the past NJC’s. If I were the only one who disagreed, this thread would have been dead long ago.

[Gary C.]

etal,

Regardless of personal opinions, the NCRS Judging rules are spec'd in the Judging Reference Manual.

Recommend y'all read the Judging Reference Manual and apply those standards when you judge a Corvette at a NCRS event.

This thread is closed.

Gary
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