No deduction for a 1967 restamped motor 427/435 motor at a National Judging Meet

[David H.]

Dave,
Are you saying that the assembly stamp (25 points) and the VIN derivative stamp (25 points) are all or nothing items.

Dave

Yes, all or nothing.

Reference "*Note" at bottom of SDG#1. Explicit, score as full credit or full deduction, no partial credit.

Dave

[Terry M.]

Dave,
Are you saying that the assembly stamp (25 points) and the VIN derivative stamp (25 points) are all or nothing items.

Dave S,
Each of the items listed in the engine judging section are "all or nothing"

The assembly stamp, VIN derivative and Engine machining marks are each "all or nothing", of course as are the casting number and casting date. Among the Team Leaders duties in reviewing the score sheets before they are submitted to tabulation is the verification that this standard is adhered to.

[Michael V.]

I am trying to understand how does a restamped motor get the same points as the factory installed original motor? What is the rationale?

[Joseph S.]

I am trying to understand how does a restamped motor get the same points as the factory installed original motor? What is the rationale?

Michael, please don't over think this. It's the same rationale that is used on every item on a restoration. If it appears to be correct then it gets full credit. That is our judging standard.

Cars are to be judged to the standard of vehicle appearance, and as equipped at the time and point
of final assembly by the Chevrolet Motor Division of General Motors Corporation. Presentation for
judging is to be in the condition normally associated with that of a Corvette which has undergone
the then‐current standard Chevrolet Dealer New Car Preparation for delivery to a purchaser,
exclusive of any dealer or purchaser inspired additions, deletions or changes.

It's the same as Paint, Wheels, Tires, Seat covers, Radiators, etc. That doesn't mean that in the outside world if someone was to purchase the car, this engine would carry the same value as an original engine. On the judging field we are evaluating the car for it's level of restoration as presented on that day. We would have a whole different approach if this was presented as a Bowtie candidate. But this car was presented to us as a Flight judged car, so it was judged according to our Judging Standard.

Regards,

[Keith B.]

so what stood out enough to call it a restamp?

[Mark L.]

Stamp pad surfaces can change from when they came out of the factory. Aging is the most common cause. On one 67 I had the surface was called "Distressed" however no points were taken.
As a side note I also looked at a 67 made the last day of production and it had a 300 hp block with a date of August 66. I'm convinced it was the original motor.

[Michael V.]

That the NCRS will give full credit for a restamped motor was news to me when I saw the National Judging sheets which is why I asked the question.

I also have a 1969 Camaro. In 1969 Camaro Legends Judging there are 275 point for the engine block. A restamp receives a 150 point deduction which rewards cars still having their original motors.

Cannot figure out why NCRS does not use similiar Judging criteria for restored cars rewarding cars that still have their original motors vs a restamp (restoration motor) a better score than a restamp motor. Just my thoughts.

[Dave S.]

I'm very confused on how if the assembly stamp and vin stamp were called out for being restamped and the pad surface lost all points for being NTP how can the stamps receive full credit. To follow the CDEIF format the date of the time of stamp is wrong To me this is very flawed

Seems to me following the “all or nothing” criteria these stamps that are a”reasonable facsimile” should be a full deduct.

[David H.]

That the NCRS will give full credit for a restamped motor was news to me when I saw the National Judging sheets which is why I asked the question.

I also have a 1969 Camaro. In 1969 Camaro Legends Judging there are 275 point for the engine block. A restamp receives a 150 point deduction which rewards cars still having their original motors.

Cannot figure out why NCRS does not use similiar Judging criteria for restored cars rewarding cars that still have their original motors vs a restamp (restoration motor) a better score than a restamp motor. Just my thoughts.

Michael

NCRS current criteria for engine blocks is unchanged from 1993 with JRM#4.

Bloomington Gold, a few years back, revised their criteria for judging engines. I've put link below if you are interested.

For me, BG's process seems excessively administrative and cumbersome at best. NCRS current method has been in place for 30+ years - and our folks still have application issues. These are restored cars. Most all have engines, came with the car or not, that have been rebuilt, so not original, i.e. unrestored, any more anyway.

Enjoy those Bowtie cars! Everything else has been messed with to one degree or another.

Dave

https://www.bloomingtongold.com/images/PDF/certification/stampsguidelines2016.pdf

[Terry M.]

Michael

NCRS current criteria for engine blocks is unchanged from 1993 with JRM#4.

Bloomington Gold, a few years back, revised their criteria for judging engines. I've put link below if you are interested.

For me, BG's process seems excessively administrative and cumbersome at best. NCRS current method has been in place for 30+ years - and our folks still have application issues. These are restored cars. Most all have engines, came with the car or not, that have been rebuilt, so not original, i.e. unrestored, any more anyway.

Enjoy those Bowtie cars! Everything else has been messed with to one degree or another.

Dave

https://www.bloomingtongold.com/images/PDF/certification/stampsguidelines2016.pdf

At this time it seems appropriate to offer some of my "words of wisdom"

"There are no Corvette virgins."

Remember that and you may take that one to the bank.
Terry

[Joseph S.]

That the NCRS will give full credit for a restamped motor was news to me when I saw the National Judging sheets which is why I asked the question.

I also have a 1969 Camaro. In 1969 Camaro Legends Judging there are 275 point for the engine block. A restamp receives a 150 point deduction which rewards cars still having their original motors.

Cannot figure out why NCRS does not use similiar Judging criteria for restored cars rewarding cars that still have their original motors vs a restamp (restoration motor) a better score than a restamp motor. Just my thoughts.

Michael, If that car had it's original motor it would have scored better. There was a deduction for the stamp pad.

I'll ask you this: If a car is presented with all reproduction parts that are a PERFECT example of original parts, what would the score be? The answer is 100%. Our Flight judging system is set up to reward cars that have been restored to APPEAR original. Not to BE original.

Joe

[Brad H.]

theres enough content in the judging sheets alone to put on an entire school


1967_chevrolet_corvette-convertible_IMG_1613-30917-scaled.webp

[Jeff M.]

Michael, If that car had it's original motor it would have scored better. There was a deduction for the stamp pad.

I'll ask you this: If a car is presented with all reproduction parts that are a PERFECT example of original parts, what would the score be? The answer is 100%. Our Flight judging system is set up to reward cars that have been restored to APPEAR original. Not to BE original.

Joe

So if the “flight judging system is set up to reward cars that have been restored to APPEAR original. Not to BE original”, I assume a good repro trim tag will be accepted as well. There are definitely trim tags that are as good of a repro as the character set on the pad in question

To address what will be said about a possible color change/interior change etc with a repro trim tag and not being any way to know what color it left the factory if allowed, NCRS doesn’t judge paper, so during judging there isnt any way to prove that the car being judged was born with whatever horsepower engine either, other than a factory installed oem motor. This is why I personally consider the pad on the same level of importance as to how NCRS treats a trim tag, not all of the other various parts and pieces to the car

[Robert N.]

I'm wondering if that company in the mid west is taking orders again, There saying was, they could build any combination of body, color and engine that would APPEAR to be original.

If there is a note like that there should be a deduction, It would be the same deduction as a cigarette lighter or a quartz clock on each line item.

[Joseph S.]

So if the “flight judging system is set up to reward cars that have been restored to APPEAR original. Not to BE original”, I assume a good repro trim tag will be accepted as well. There are definitely trim tags that are as good of a repro as the character set on the pad in question

To address what will be said about a possible color change/interior change etc with a repro trim tag and not being any way to know what color it left the factory if allowed, NCRS doesn’t judge paper, so during judging there isnt any way to prove that the car being judged was born with whatever horsepower engine either, other than a factory installed oem motor. This is why I personally consider the pad on the same level of importance as to how NCRS treats a trim tag, not all of the other various parts and pieces to the car

Jeff, There is a HUGE difference between an Engine pad and a Trim tag. The Trim and VIN tags are not wear items.

I'm happy to discuss this at any time but our Judging system is what it is. Sorry to say, we can't bring our personal decisions into play. I will also say, you are mistaken about the paperwork. If someone has paperwork to back up any option on their car and it is necessary to review it with the Team Leader, that certainly can be done.

Regards, Joe