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Lifter wear and conditions it creates

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  • Nick D.
    Expired
    • December 15, 2020
    • 94

    Lifter wear and conditions it creates

    Question about lifter condition, effect on the engine. It's a '70 Chevelle 350 put in by the first owner. Second owner did some cosmtetic stuff, added Edlebrock cam and carb. The engine was so clean you could eat off it.

    I've revised the purpose of the question for clarity, now.

    The initial input I received was about consequences of the problem and steps forward, which was valuable info to me.

    In my original post, I wanted hear speculation on how it happened. As noted, my original thought was that one way or the other, valve spring pressure was the culprit. Either that or just plain old excessive lash after a valve job.

    My engine is ruined from a bad lifter/cam lobe that I never heard before the valve job and I'm looking for answers.

    Here is my guess as to the cause.

    If there was no tap before the valve job, my (amateur) guess is that this one valve was not adjusted and the lifter banged against the cam, resulting in what you see. That would explain why 14 lifters look fine, one is kinda bad and one is horrible. The engine has never been taken apart. If that's the case, this would have need to have occurred over about 500 miles of max 3000 rpm, every now and then, 4500. Last oil change used 20w50.

    This could also have been a minor problem, undetectible before, made worse after the valve job, due to poor adjustment. A few thousand miles earlier, compression was within range on all cylinders.


    Circumstances

    I did not hear any kind of a valve tap prior to a valve job to replace guides/seals. The Head rebuilder said they were fine, spark plug fouling due to too large of carburator. (Expert in Honolulu put an Edlebrock 750 on a stock '70 Chevelle 350 and it's not possible to have sustained high rpm on Maui).

    Thoughts?


    Original post

    Lifter pics attached. One is really cupped, one not near as much, four with the same minor wear pattern and the others, flat. I can't see an acceptable format to upload a video so you can hear the engine...

    I think cupping like that is due to valve spring pressure, not a bad cam, which my mechanic said was the problem. Engine ran really smooth a couple thousand miles ago but.. some changes since then..


    1. My question is, with that much cupping, is it likely that this lifter was making the a lifter sound before and I didn't hear it?

    2. I'd say this lifter wear took a long time. I don't think that could happen with only 1000 miles after the heads were rebuilt (to solve a bad spark plug fouling problem. The Head rebuilder said heads were fine, engine solid, the carb was too big fouling the plugs, not oil)

    3. Would this lifter prevent it from running smoothly? (It purred before the valve job if spark plugs were fresh)

    4. Could this valve/spring be adjusted to compensate for the wear, if it coulld be isolated during a valve adjustment, prior to replaceing the lifters?

    4. I didn't hear a valve tap before the heads were rebuilt but I did after and now moreso after new lifters were installed! Hard to say with a new exhast leak on one side, at or near the exahust manifold. (That's how the mechanic gave it back to me). But now I hear the tap on both sides when it was mostly one side before.

    The engine does run much more smoothly after the lifter replacement, very close to how it ran with the too-big carb and fresh plugs.

    This guy obviously is done working on the car since he gave it back to me like this.. he did not charge for the lifter replacement, possibly because no matter what he does, problems come up in completing any job all the way. There is a history of carb problems, I think starting with when they first touched the car (and crashed it during a compresson test two weeks after I bought it)..this has been a tough road..

    My next step is to change the oil, which was not done along the way...

    I'd appreciate your input. I wish this was a simple whats the deal with the lifter but the sequnnce of events and contiions complicate it.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Nick D.; June 4, 2023, 03:38 PM.
  • Rod K.
    Very Frequent User
    • April 1, 1990
    • 443

    #2
    Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your cam is undoubtedly now functional as a doorstop. Hopefully your "mechanic" didn't replace lifters after seeing these as they are mostly junk. All the one's on the right in your pics are wearing or already way beyond replacement. You should never put new lifters on a cam which had old ones like these, and BTW, if you have reason to remove lifters, rockers, etc and replace the old parts back in the engine, be sure they go back in the same place, same cam lobe, same rocker, same valve, etc. They get mated to their mating parts and will not be happy with anyone else. Yes, the worst one should have been fair warning, plenty of noise and not adjustable. If you're hearing two tapping lifters it's probably wiped another lobe on the cam. It only takes a little time to wipe a lobe once it starts.

    Do not run the engine until oil has been changed and ideally changed a second time after a short warm up to flush the metal into the filter. Change the filter and refill the engine with new oil. All that metal from the lifters is in the engine. Others may recommend a more though flushing or even teardown.

    Unfortunately the initial cupping probably was due to a bad cam, oil pressure problem, lifter adjustment or whatever. You didn't mention what engine, cam, etc., we're talking about, factory or after market? If it's a wild grind with lots of spring pressure that could have contributed.

    This is just my unprofessional take on your situation. Hopefully the real experts will chime in here.

    Comment

    • Chris H.
      Very Frequent User
      • April 1, 2000
      • 837

      #3
      1969 Riverside Gold Coupe, L71, 14,000 miles. Top Flight, 2 Star Bowtie.

      Comment

      • Joe L.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • February 1, 1988
        • 43219

        #4
        Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

        Originally posted by Nick Drance (67554)
        Question about lifter condition, effect on the engine.

        Lifter pics attached. One is really cupped, one not near as much, four with the same minor wear pattern and the others, flat. I can't see an acceptable format to upload a video so you can hear the engine...

        I think cupping like that is due to valve spring pressure, not a bad cam, which my mechanic said was the problem. Engine ran really smooth a couple thousand miles ago but.. some changes since then..

        1. My question is, with that much cupping, is it likely that this lifter was making the a lifter sound before and I didn't hear it?

        2. I'd say this lifter wear took a long time. I don't think that could happen with only 1000 miles after the heads were rebuilt (to solve a bad spark plug fouling problem. The Head rebuilder said heads were fine, engine solid, the carb was too big fouling the plugs, not oil)

        3. Would this lifter prevent it from running smoothly? (It purred before the valve job if spark plugs were fresh)

        4. Could this valve/spring be adjusted to compensate for the wear, if it coulld be isolated during a valve adjustment, prior to replaceing the lifters?

        4. I didn't hear a valve tap before the heads were rebuilt but I did after and now moreso after new lifters were installed! Hard to say with a new exhast leak on one side, at or near the exahust manifold. (That's how the mechanic gave it back to me). But now I hear the tap on both sides when it was mostly one side before.

        The engine does run much more smoothly after the lifter replacement, very close to how it ran with the too-big carb and fresh plugs.

        This guy obviously is done working on the car since he gave it back to me like this.. he did not charge for the lifter replacement, possibly because no matter what he does, problems come up in completing any job all the way. There is a history of carb problems, I think starting with when they first touched the car (and crashed it during a compresson test two weeks after I bought it)..this has been a tough road..

        My next step is to change the oil, which was not done along the way...

        I'd appreciate your input. I wish this was a simple whats the deal with the lifter but the sequnnce of events and contiions complicate it.

        Nick-------


        The lifter camshaft contact surface should be ever-so-slightly CONVEX, not concave or flat". These lifters are all scrap metal as is the camshaft they were once mated with. Putting new lifters on the camshaft these lifters once rode on will result in the same problem in relatively short order.
        In Appreciation of John Hinckley

        Comment

        • Chris H.
          Very Frequent User
          • April 1, 2000
          • 837

          #5
          Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

          Yes agree with Joe and Rod. This scenario happened to me so I decided to pull the motor and rebuild it. I went with a hydraulic roller so I don’t have to worry about ZDDP and wiped cams anymore. Plus modern cam grinds make more average power.
          1969 Riverside Gold Coupe, L71, 14,000 miles. Top Flight, 2 Star Bowtie.

          Comment

          • Joe L.
            Beyond Control Poster
            • February 1, 1988
            • 43219

            #6
            Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

            Originally posted by Chris Hewitt (33863)
            Yes agree with Joe and Rod. This scenario happened to me so I decided to pull the motor and rebuild it. I went with a hydraulic roller so I don’t have to worry about ZDDP and wiped cams anymore. Plus modern cam grinds make more average power.
            Chris------


            As I've said many times before, hydraulic roller cams are the only thing I would use or recommend today. Flat tappet is totally obsolete and too problematic in today's world.

            If one is building an engine for a "trailer queen" go ahead and use flat tappet. Otherwise, hydraulic roller.
            In Appreciation of John Hinckley

            Comment

            • Nick D.
              Expired
              • December 15, 2020
              • 94

              #7
              Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

              Guys, hopefully everyone up till now will see this response. I appreciate your input.

              As it turns out, at this point, this is more of a human interest story and tech questions don't need to be addressed anymore. All good.

              Sounds like the cam is culprit. Probaly on the same cylinder. Yes, likely needs to be replaced. The car will be driven lightly, untill it is rebuilt. New lifters are in, valves sound worse than ever, none probably adjusted properly, I now hear chatter both sides. Good news is, and this is very important to me, it hums at idle close to what it did before the valve job. Humed at idle, like a 60's big block luxury car with resonators.

              1. Well, the old lifters are all mixed up now, new ones in the engine, old oil still in there after the valve job and after the lifter replacement.

              2. I guess I have a hearing problem since I didn't hear the lifter before (not being sarcastic) and 2000 miles ago, with fresh, unfouled plusg, it ran way smooth. The idle at the tail pipes sounded the hum of a '60's high compression luxury car with mufflers and resonators. I don't understand how that can be, before the valve job. Now it's almost as smooth like that, but with valve tap all over... and and yet another exhaust leak near the manifold.

              The pictures tell the story, understood.

              Thanks guys! Aloha!
              Last edited by Nick D.; May 17, 2023, 06:15 AM.

              Comment

              • Mark E.
                Extremely Frequent Poster
                • April 1, 1993
                • 4536

                #8
                Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                I would avoid running the engine while it eats cam lobes and lifters. The metal comtaminated oil will damage expensive parts like crankshaft journals and cylinder walls, significantly increasing your machine shop bill.
                Mark Edmondson
                Dallas, Texas
                Texas Chapter

                1970 Coupe, Donnybrooke Green, Light Saddle LS5 M20 A31 C60 G81 N37 N40 UA6 U79
                1993 Coupe, 40th Anniversary, 6-speed, PEG 1, FX3, CD, Bronze Top

                Comment

                • Rod K.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • April 1, 1990
                  • 443

                  #9
                  Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                  Let me reinforce Mark's message: DO NOT RUN THE ENGINE UNLESS YOU'RE PLANNING TO REPLACE IT. BEARINGS, CRANKSHAFT, CYLINDER WALLS, ETC., CAN ALL BE DAMAGED IN SHORT ORDER BY METAL PARTICLES YOU'RE CREATING BY RUNNING IT IN ITS CURRENT STATE. The cost of your new valve job will seem like an oil change compared to the damage you'll do if you continue to run it. I'd find a competent mechanic and tow the car to them, at the very least have them pull the cam and the pan and inspect the crank and bearings. Good luck.

                  Comment

                  • Nick D.
                    Expired
                    • December 15, 2020
                    • 94

                    #10
                    Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                    Sounds like any professional mechanic would have dealt with the lifter, discovered during valve job re-assembly and any competent mechanic, would not have put new lifters in and reassembled the engine.

                    Is that a correct view?

                    I discovered yesterday that I had the same oil as before the valve job. ANYONE would have changed the oil during the valve job and lifter process, at least, right? This is sounding worse by the second.

                    Now the engine needs to be taken apart a third time......this is torture..

                    Rod, it's a '70 Chevelle 350 that the original owner put in.



                    Originally posted by Rod Kramer (17041)
                    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your cam is undoubtedly now functional as a doorstop. Hopefully your "mechanic" didn't replace lifters after seeing these as they are mostly junk. All the one's on the right in your pics are wearing or already way beyond replacement. You should never put new lifters on a cam which had old ones like these, and BTW, if you have reason to remove lifters, rockers, etc and replace the old parts back in the engine, be sure they go back in the same place, same cam lobe, same rocker, same valve, etc. They get mated to their mating parts and will not be happy with anyone else. Yes, the worst one should have been fair warning, plenty of noise and not adjustable. If you're hearing two tapping lifters it's probably wiped another lobe on the cam. It only takes a little time to wipe a lobe once it starts.

                    Do not run the engine until oil has been changed and ideally changed a second time after a short warm up to flush the metal into the filter. Change the filter and refill the engine with new oil. All that metal from the lifters is in the engine. Others may recommend a more though flushing or even teardown.

                    Unfortunately the initial cupping probably was due to a bad cam, oil pressure problem, lifter adjustment or whatever. You didn't mention what engine, cam, etc., we're talking about, factory or after market? If it's a wild grind with lots of spring pressure that could have contributed.

                    This is just my unprofessional take on your situation. Hopefully the real experts will chime in here.

                    Comment

                    • Duke W.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • January 1, 1993
                      • 15667

                      #11
                      Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                      Do I understand correctly that your "mechanic" replaced damaged lifters with new ones WITHOUT replacing the camshaft after rebuilding the heads?

                      What engine is in the car? OE equivalent or modified, especially the camshaft?

                      Were the valve springs replaced as part the head rebuilt? What are the seat /open forces and rate specs

                      What API service category engine oil are you using.

                      Duke

                      Comment

                      • Nick D.
                        Expired
                        • December 15, 2020
                        • 94

                        #12
                        Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                        Engine is stock Chevelle/Monte Carlo 350, made for 4 spd, 4 bbl according to GM Heritage code matching.

                        Yes, you are correct, new lifters put in, nothing else. Doesn't sound like the valves were adjusted either.

                        The head rebuilding shop (Pat's Cylinder Head Rebuilding) invoice copy that I finally got a copy of did not list any new parts, just valve and seat grinding. He was an old timer. He said the heads were fine, engine solid, the culprit to spark plug fouling was the 650 carb that a carb expert had put on, not oil.

                        The oil used was 20w 50.

                        I live on Maui. It's not like the mainland. I don't have the same resources here that you guys take for granted. I doubt that what I am experiencing here would probably not happen there. Trust and blind faith surely are not appropriate here.



                        Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)
                        Do I understand correctly that your "mechanic" replaced damaged lifters with new ones WITHOUT replacing the camshaft after rebuilding the heads?

                        What engine is in the car? OE equivalent or modified, especially the camshaft?

                        Were the valve springs replaced as part the head rebuilt? What are the seat /open forces and rate specs

                        What API service category engine oil are you using.

                        Duke

                        Comment

                        • Chris H.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • April 1, 2000
                          • 837

                          #13
                          Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                          Nick based on your geographical challenges and non original motor, I would go with a new crate motor carb to pan. No muss no fuss, you and a buddy with a hoist can do the swap in an afternoon. Turn the key and start enjoying your ‘64 again.
                          1969 Riverside Gold Coupe, L71, 14,000 miles. Top Flight, 2 Star Bowtie.

                          Comment

                          • Nick D.
                            Expired
                            • December 15, 2020
                            • 94

                            #14

                            Comment

                            • Duke W.
                              Beyond Control Poster
                              • January 1, 1993
                              • 15667

                              #15
                              Re: Lifter wear and conditions it creates

                              You need to use an API service category CK-4 oil. Likely the "20W-50" oil you have been using is SN. Go to the sticky section, open the restoration documents thread near the bottom, then go down the documents to the oil article, download and read it.

                              That Chevelle 350 4-bbl. is likely the same as a base Corvette 350/300 other than having different exhaust manifolds as originally assembled. It likely needs a complete rebuild due to bearing damage from the galled lifter particles, so a crate engine may be a better option given that your small island may not have a resources to do a complete rebuild, and a crate engine may be less expensive.

                              Any time galled lifters are found it's virtually a 100 percent certainty that the cam lobes are galled, too. Whether the initial damage was caused by a lobe or lifter is irrelevant, both cam and lifters need to be changed. I'm appalled that any "professional", (i.e. one that charges for his services regardless of being competent or not) mechanic wouldn't know that.

                              Drain some oil out of it and swish a good magnet around in it and see what it comes up with. I bet you'll find tiny particles. You can also dissect the oil filter to see what it reveals.

                              Duke

                              Comment

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