How will this be judged?

[Donald H.]

I'm helping a friend prepare his car for a regional judging. The car is a 66 convertible 390 HP big block. The question is regarding his suspension. Most of his suspension components are standard suspension; however, he has F41 front springs.

In section 7 Front Suspension of the judging guide, it states "All suspension components must be matched correctly for the level of suspension claimed in order to receive credit. This includes stabilizer anti-roll bar, shocks and front & rear springs. Optional F41 suspension was available only with the optional L72, 425 HP engine. Confirm the correct application to the car being judged."

Does this mean that he will lose all suspension points (front and rear total 140), or just the front springs (8)?

Thanks,

Don

[James W.]

Re: How will this be judged?

Don,

First of all, what suspension components are not standard besides the front springs?

If all the rest of the the front and rear suspension components are corrrect for CDCIF, a deduction would only be made for the F41 front springs for "Configuration" if they are detected. The deduction would be 0.8 points, so in reality you would not receive a deduction since it is less the 1 point.

Others may say since it is the wrong spring and will take a full 4 point deduction since the spring is wrong application since the car is not equipped with the L72 engine option. In that case you would also lose 4 points for condition since you can't earn condition points if take a full deduct for originality. Worst case you would 8 points total for the front springs.

James

I'm helping a friend prepare his car for a regional judging. The car is a 66 convertible 390 HP big block. The question is regarding his suspension. Most of his suspension components are standard suspension; however, he has F41 front springs.

In section 7 Front Suspension of the judging guide, it states "All suspension components must be matched correctly for the level of suspension claimed in order to receive credit. This includes stabilizer anti-roll bar, shocks and front & rear springs. Optional F41 suspension was available only with the optional L72, 425 HP engine. Confirm the correct application to the car being judged."

Does this mean that he will lose all suspension points (front and rear total 140), or just the front springs (8)?

Thanks,

Don

[Gary B.]

[James W.]

Re: How will this be judged?

As a judge using CDCIF you are not supposed to round up, only down.

James

[Gary B.]

Re: How will this be judged?

James,

I’m not saying what you said is not correct, but what I am saying is that I’ve seen rounding up when I’ve judged or observed judging. So, I believe rounding is common in practice. Here’s an example: if you look thru the archives or talk with folks who have had their cars judged, the standard deduction for a good reproduction battery should be 30% of 25 pts for C2. Or 7.5 points. But you’ll see people typically quote 8 pts. And less frequently 7 pts.

Gary

PS I also know judges who won’t round up if the deduction ends in x.5. Only if x.6 or higher.

[Tim G.]

[Gary B.]

On 3/15/19, at the Judging

[Donald H.]

Re: How will this be judged?

Thanks all,

Don

[Joseph L.]

Re: How will this be judged?

I was there, took notes, and agree that the 2019 Dallas judging retreat presented rounding up at 0.6.
Joe

[Hank D.]

Re: How will this be judged?

Switching gears now from the point deduction rounding question.

The JG says, as indicated in Post #1 that "All suspension components must be matched correctly for the level of suspension claimed in order to receive credit (my emphasis). This includes stabilizer anti-roll bar, shocks and front & rear springs. Optional F41 suspension was available only with the optional L72, 425 HP engine. Confirm the correct application to the car being judged."

[David H.]

Re: How will this be judged?

Switching gears now from the point deduction rounding question.

The JG says, as indicated in Post #1 that "All suspension components must be matched correctly for the level of suspension claimed in order to receive credit (my emphasis). This includes stabilizer anti-roll bar, shocks and front & rear springs. Optional F41 suspension was available only with the optional L72, 425 HP engine. Confirm the correct application to the car being judged."
Given this directive, if an owner claims the car has standard suspension, yet there is one component (front springs in this case) that is only available with F41, then would it not be appropriate to deduct full credit (8-points) for the front springs? That seems doubly indicated in this example because (1) F41 front springs were only available with the entire package; and (2) this is not an L72 car as the JG requires.

I don’t believe CDCIF should be used here.

Perhaps some of the more experienced Chassis Judges will comment here.


(BTW, I agree with Messrs. Scafidi and Picconi in that rounding up from 0.6 is correct).

Out of curiosity, what edition of the 1966 Judging Guide are you referencing?

That "all or nothing" language is NOT in current 1967 Judging Guide. (Similar language was in 4th edition of 1967 Guide)

Then again, perhaps 1966 standards are more stringent than other years.

--------------------------
Items that do not fall under Standard Deduction Guidelines are judged using C.D.C.I.F. (Configuration/Date/Completeness/Installation/Finish)

My opinion is that language in question is a reminder to judges that those components NOT consistent with originally installed suspension differ in CONFIGURATION and hence a Configuration deduction is warranted.

Also note: later in that paragraph is an admonition for judges to take a FINISH deduction for paint e.g. cast blast. That reminder is also consistent with CDCIF judging.

Dave

[Gary B.]

Re: How will this be judged?

David,

The text that Don and Hark are referring to is in the latest edition of the ‘66 JG.

D8303D57-2CC9-4451-9B27-17A8CCF088C3.jpg

It’s interesting that the ‘67 JG had the same language in earlier editions, but then removed it. For the sake of clarity, I would suggest the language should be removed from the ‘66 JG. Or at a minimum, make the intent more clear in terms of how to deduct.

As people have questioned in the above, the ‘66 JG language might be interpreted as indicating there should be a full deduction for all items in that suspension category and not use CDCIF on individual components. I suspect that is why the language was removed from the ‘67 JG.

Gary

[Tony S.]

Re: How will this be judged?

The F41 components on an L36 car will receive a FULL DEDUCTION. This is not governed by CDCIF. Please refer to section 9 of the Standard Deduction chart entitled, "Added or Deleted Options". Hope this helps.

Tony

[David H.]

Re: How will this be judged?

The F41 components on an L36 car will receive a FULL DEDUCTION. This is not governed by CDCIF. Please refer to section 9 of the Standard Deduction chart entitled, "Added or Deleted Options". Hope this helps.

Tony

Tony

Exactly Right!

Perhaps owner may be better off with after-market components and just lose CDCIF points. That way you would salvage Condition points as well.

Dave

(Just avoid that "Significantly Dissimilar" stuff)

[Patrick H.]

Re: How will this be judged?

How does one differentiate standard vs. F-41 front springs once they are installed in the car and the car is sitting on the ground in judging position?

Rear springs, sway bar, etc, are easy.