Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

[Larry E.]

Toying with the idea of taking one of my 66 Corvettes to Galena IL (ILNCRS) meet this year. It would be
entered in the Concours Blue Ribbon, Stock Division. Does the Judging prep on the field the SAME as the
Top Flight cars? What I mean by that is> Dropping the Spare Tub to expose the Spare? Taking off the Air
Cleaner and Parts of the Ignition Shielding? Anything else that comes to mind? Thanks in Advance>Larry

[Brian D.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Larry,
I ought to know this after a few judging schools... let's see how I do.
Concours Judging basically uses the "Condition" side of the standard sheets.
However, if an item is intentionally omitted (such as no spare tire because of using modern run flats),
then no deductions are taken for that item.
So yes, anything which would ordinarily be judged for Flight Judging needs to be visible for Concours Judging.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Toying with the idea of taking one of my 66 Corvettes to Galena IL (ILNCRS) meet this year. It would be
entered in the Concours Blue Ribbon, Stock Division. Does the Judging prep on the field the SAME as the
Top Flight cars? What I mean by that is> Dropping the Spare Tub to expose the Spare? Taking off the Air
Cleaner and Parts of the Ignition Shielding? Anything else that comes to mind? Thanks in Advance>Larry

Larry
The following is based on my lack of knowledge or involvement in Concourse judging. And I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night. We are all subject to learning through your question.

Remember, the Stock category is only dependent on a view from 10 or so feet away with the doors and hood closed. What is under the hood does not determine the classification of judging.

As Brian said there is no originality judging in Concourse, so removal of air filter is only needed so the judge(s) can see the condition of the induction system. If your induction system is such that the air filter allows a view without removing it, so be it. That might be the case if you installed a Gen II LT1 or an LS motor.

I believe Brian gave the correct answer for the spare tire, or lack of same.

[Larry E.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Thanks Terry for the response. I'm learning like you. I downloaded all the scoring sheets and they are very similar to the
scoring sheets for the "Flight Cars". Their preference is for "appearance" only. So dates are not judged. They will look at
the carburetor but not the date. They want to see the Distributor cap. They will look for the proper decals/stickers. Windows
will be looked at for the proper markings but not the proper dates. So if I read the judging sheets correct it is very similar to
flight judging minus the dates. Both my cars have earned "Top Flight" in the past (A long time ago) so I want just some-
thing different to do. The way it looks to me if options where added but done proper it would pass. Don't forget we are talking
about "Concours Blue Ribbon Stock"Division. Comments always welcomed. Larry
P.S. Terry>I believe your statement> What is under the hood does not determine the classification of judging. That might be the case if you installed a Gen II LT1 or an LS motor. is incorrect according to the scoring sheets. Unless they are saying you can
run these engine but "take the hit on the score of the car". If so many changes have occurred then the "Blue Ribbon" will never be obtained so the car should be but not forced into the "modified" division. Comments Please

[Dennis C.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

From NCRS site:


What constitutes a Stock or Modified Corvette for Concours judging purposes? A Stock Corvette is one with the doors, hood and trunk (ISE) closed, and excluding wheels & tires but including paint color or scheme, the car basically appears like a production Corvette. From outward appearance the car body appears to be stock or as it came from the factory. It can have show quality chrome and paint, a different motor than was originally in the car and different suspension. The key in this class is whether the car looks like it might be stock. Modified Corvettes includes all other Corvettes. These can have flared fenders, custom paint such as flames pin stripes or other custom touches. This modified class opens the field for a wide variety of Corvettes that were not previously considered candidates for Flight judging. Concours judging is an exciting new concept within the NCRS and is an exciting new way to open the field for a new generation of Corvette fanatics.

[Terry M.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Thanks Terry for the response. I'm learning like you. I downloaded all the scoring sheets and they are very similar to the
scoring sheets for the "Flight Cars". Their preference is for "appearance" only. So dates are not judged. They will look at
the carburetor but not the date. They want to see the Distributor cap. They will look for the proper decals/stickers. Windows
will be looked at for the proper markings but not the proper dates. So if I read the judging sheets correct it is very similar to
flight judging minus the dates. Both my cars have earned "Top Flight" in the past (A long time ago) so I want just some-
thing different to do. The way it looks to me if options where added but done proper it would pass. Don't forget we are talking
about "Concours Blue Ribbon Stock"Division. Comments always welcomed. Larry
P.S. Terry>I believe your statement> What is under the hood does not determine the classification of judging. That might be the case if you installed a Gen II LT1 or an LS motor. is incorrect according to the scoring sheets. Unless they are saying you can
run these engine but "take the hit on the score of the car". If so many changes have occurred then the "Blue Ribbon" will never be obtained so the car should be but not forced into the "modified" division. Comments Please

Larry,

As Dennis so wisely found: "What constitutes a Stock or Modified Corvette for Concours judging purposes? A Stock Corvette is one with the doors, hood and trunk (ISE) closed, and excluding wheels & tires but including paint color or scheme, the car basically appears like a production Corvette. From outward appearance the car body appears to be stock or as it came from the factory. It can have show quality chrome and paint, a different motor than was originally in the car and different suspension. The key in this class is whether the car looks like it might be stock."

So a different motor is no issue. If it happens to be a motor with no visible distributor, as in an LS series motor, no deduction is made. Full credit is awarded. This situation is just like flight judging a non Air Conditioned car which receives full credit on the lines for air conditioning.

[Larry E.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Ok;I think I understand it now. So in the Concours Stock Class>As long as the Car looks stock from the outside anything can
be changed in all 4 categories.eg>engine/seats/instrument panel/radio's/suspension/and etc.>correct? Then by doing this you can
throw out the judging sheets as so many things they got listed BECOME EXEMPT>CORRECT? IF IT IS COUNT ME OUT AS I
SEE NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MODIFIED AND STOCK CLASSES. IMHO THE CONCOURS STOCK SHOULD BE THAT EVERYTHING LOOKS STOCK EXCEPT FOR THE DATE CODING. AS IT IS RIGHT NOW IT IS POORLY DESIGNED CLASS THAT
HAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MODIFIED/STOCK DIVISIONS EXCEPT FOR THE OUTSIDE LOOKS. I can see no input
from the members was used with this design. Of course JMHO > Larry

[Terry M.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Ok;I think I understand it now. So in the Concours Stock Class>As long as the Car looks stock from the outside anything can
be changed in all 4 categories.eg>engine/seats/instrument panel/radio's/suspension/and etc.>correct?

Then by doing this you can
throw out the judging sheets as so many things they got listed BECOME EXEMPT>CORRECT? > Larry

Yes, I believe your first statement is correct. However, I will again offer the disclaimer that I am in what for me is uncharted waters here.

I don't believe throwing out the judging score sheets is quite appropriate.
A) we had to start somewhere
B) I have seen several of what most people might call resto-mods in Concours (I am still trying to work out the spelling of this category) judging that I was thrilled to see. I admit others may be less than thrilled looking at these cars. I think that means this category is not for everyone.... No problem there. NCRS Flight Judging is not for everyone either.
C. The Concours class, like Flight Judging is not competitive. That is, one car is not competing against another car. Everyone can win; or no one can win. It is all about the ability to meet a personal challenge. Oh, and the fun of getting together with friends too. We have missed a lot of the later lately.

[Eric P.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

I want to share my personal experience with this class of judging. First, I really appreciate and enjoy all classes of judging that I have witnessed or participated in as an owner since I became an active member in 2017. At that time I owned a 1967 SB Convertible. That Corvette was a car I really liked and improved the overall condition on over approximately 8 years of ownership. It was a very stock and original car that was done the way I wanted it to look. The paint and interior matched the original Trim Tag, and it was a matching number 300hp car. The paint was the largest investment I made, and when this car was shown and judged in the Concours stock class it (the paint) was viewed very favorably by the judges and many NCRS members attending. Prior to entering the car we debated on whether to judge it as a "Flight Car" or in the Concours class. The paint was one big reason I chose the Concours class. To me it looked so good, and I worked so hard getting it the correct Elkhart Blue color, there was no reason to be disappointed over the deduction for it being Base coat-Clear coat, and "shiny" in the door jambs, under the bumpers, and the other areas where it was supposed to be "dull". This along with some other very correct stock appearing changes I made with NOS parts were going to be quickly detected by Flight judging, deductions, and I knew that. I won't go on about the other changes, and the rest of the story, but I will say it made for a lot of discussion with many people on that particular Corvette about why or why not to have it Flight or Concours judged. I enjoyed the judging process, and the convention especially since it was the "year of" for '67's. Participating in the Concours judging with other owners of some very nice Corvettes that appeared to be original, some that were mildly customized, and some that were completely Resto Mods was truly a fun experience. I for one believe adding these classes of judging was a wise and great move made by the NCRS. In closing, it also took a lot of stress out of the whole process. As mentioned above we enjoyed the convention, the comradery of seeing friends and making new ones, and showing this car as much as any other cars we have shown for judging so far.

Eric Patty
NCRS #8355

[Larry E.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

OK; FWIW here is my responses to the above.

First for Terry>However, I will again offer the disclaimer that I am in what for me is uncharted waters here.
Terry I trust your input way more even if you are in uncharted waters in comparison to some of our so called experts
who claim they are in their charted waters.

NOW I WILL MAKE SOME STATEMENTS COMING FROM THE POINT OF FAIRNESS.

When we look at Erics nice car above he was judged for all the 2260 points in the judging sheets. He was look/scrutinized
for every point earned which is what should happen. Whatever award was given he earned.

Now another car that looks stock from the outside but the owner has made numerous changes on the inside. eg. Could have
a Ford Crated Engine in it. So many changes in the engine bay to make this happen. All new interior changes to everything
from the Radio to Dash Board and Seats and on and on. Then of course all new changed chassis underneath. With all this done
I can easily see where 50% of the points on the judging sheets now will become "exempt" and credit given. If you do not
believe this please unload the scoring sheets or at least look at them.

Bottom Line a Heavily Modified car like the above could easily be given a "Blue Ribbon" and a Older Second Flight or Older Top
Flight(Earned a while Back) may not even attain a Red Ribbon since all 2260 points are judged.

Real simple solution: Add a rule to say if a certain percentage of the points are exempt(Let's just say 15%) force that car
into the modified division. That's called LOGIC where I come from. Of course this is JMHO>Comments Please>Larry

[Mark T.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Larry I have been heavily involved in the Concours program since the beginning I am over a 400 point Master Judge and I have 3 different cars which have Top Flighted.I love the Concours class The inovations and engineering on some of the cars is very impressing. There is really very little difference in the 2 judging classes.We are only concerned with appearence We use a chart which has deduction guidelines and suggested percentages for deductions
Many members and judges were involved with input on the judging process.I have judged Concours at least a dozen times and the majority of cars have been awarded a ribbon. The Concours judging is a lot of fun and definitely less stressful than Flight Judging Dave Brigham has given judging schools on Concours at many Regionals and quite a few Chapters have held schools on Concours If you are considering having your car Concours judged I suggest you speak with members who have .
If you would like more information or to discuss the program send me a PM or call my cell which is on the inside page of the Restorer
Mark Tulley

[Larry E.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

[QUOTE=Mark Tulley (41499);889978] There is really very little difference in the 2 judging classes.

Hay Mark>Thanks for the response. I think the whole concept comes down to your above statement. If all the members would be allowed to vote I believe that you would find. >>THAT WE WANT A DIFFERENCE IN THE 2 CLASSES!! Larry

[Mark T.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Larry what are your suggestions ?
Mark

[Larry E.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Larry what are your suggestions ?
Mark

Real simple solution: Add a rule to say if a certain percentage of the points are exempt(Let's just say 15%or more) force that car
into the modified division. Of course this is JMHO>Comments Please>Larry
P.S. The lower the percent the better. The way it is now a stock car is penalized in the Stock Division of all things.

[Rick C.]

Re: Question On Concours Blue Ribbon Judging> Stock Division.

Brian. besides removing the spare tire you would need to remove all the spare tire components, tub, jack ect.