Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

[Edward B.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

Larry, you can do whatever you want but both McNeish and Sinor are payed employees of the auction house and are doing their job by building up the product that is being auctioned.

I can't speak for Roy, but I KNOW Jerry is paid by B.J. to VERIFY what the car is being represented as. He's NOT there to "build up" any cars. This started several years ago when people started finding out that the cars they purchased weren't real. B.J. has since employed several classic car experts to do exactly what Jerry does so this doesn't happen again. I just wish the other auctions would do the same thing.

Ed

[Guest]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

You can't beat the knowledge and the many years experiences that Roy Sinor has with Corvette's with NCRS and Bloomington Gold, B.J. hire's the best in the business to Verifying the Corvette there buying is the REAL DEAL and nothing less.

[Roy S.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

Please excuse the long protracted response:

The first “expert” (I put that in quotes because everyone has a different definition of what an expert is) was either Kevin Marti or myself, Jerry MacNeish came a year or two later, and since others have been retained. Our sole purpose there is to make sure the description is an accurate representation of the vehicle being sold, that saves the buyer, the seller and Barrett-Jackson from the potential of a backed up sale or law suit for misrepresentation. Barrett-Jackson does not pay us to talk about cars, they do not designate which cars we talk about, they do not dictate what we can or can’t say, they use us as an expert. Typically when Jerry, I or one of the other experts talk about a vehicle it’s because it is well represented and a solid example of the marque, that does not mean it’s perfect or does not have issues, listen to what we say, if we say it is a matching numbers engine that means we believe it is the indeed the original engine not a restamp. If at the beginning of the announcement they say there is an automotive specialist change to the description that means we have changed the original description and pay close attention to what it now says not what the original write up said. I think we have helped the average price of an original car at Barrett-Jackson having some faith that someone has inspected and confirmed the claims has to be of some value to most. A word of caution here, we review the car card for false claims, if no claims are made we pay little attention to the description. It is the buyer’s responsibility to evaluate the car he buys. We check the things the buyer might not be qualified to recognize, such as engine pad, trim tag, VIN plate. That’s why at least three cars included in the description the terms Non OEM trim tag, that’s why at least three cars had level two state inspections because they carried reproduction VIN plates each of those cars were sold with Arizona state assigned VIN number bonded titles.

Car prices it is what it is cycles come and go, markets get saturated and the favor of the day changes, it appears to me the Rest-O-Mod craze is nothing short of the street Rod craze when I was young. In general those cars are worth the most they will ever be worth the day the last check is written to the builder. Sometimes, that’s not the case but often times it is, and if they happen to break the bank, they are fine until it sells the next time with outdated technology. I had a consignor I helped get a rest-0-mod their it was state of the art electronically, lane change sensors, blind spot notification, push start, back up camera all the bells and whistles, he did OK but he did not set the world on fire. I also helped another guy get his original engine LT1 A/C Convertible their and it broke the bank on a Thursday night, I believe it may be a world record for a public sale of an LT1 A/C Convertible, it was far from perfect but it was a real car.

I applaud Craig Jackson, Steve Davis and the now departed Gary Bennett for recognizing the need for such verification of the sellers claims and stepping up to the plate to do something about it, says a lot about where they want the standard to be. This year they had a rest-o-mod expert reviewing the claims of the customs to make sure they were not miss represented and just as many change were made on those descriptions as were on the original cars.

[Darryl D.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

if we say it is a matching numbers engine that means we believe it is the indeed the original engine not a restamp.

I pretty much agree with all of the above EXCEPT for what I have bolded in you post. Why don't you use the term "born with engine" rather than "matching numbers?" The vast majority of the hobby have come to look at the term "matching numbers" to most likely mean it is a re-stamp. The term "born with" leaves no doubt as to what a seller is stating and usually has documentation to back it up.

[Roy S.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

We don't select the term "Matching Numbers" the seller writes the description. we are aware of a court case that has settled where the ruling was that a re stamped motor was not matching numbers. When if that case ever gets appealed it will become a federal law. If a seller states it is "matching numbers" that is his choice of words if it is not we make them remove it. Like wise if a seller states born with engine and it is a detectable re stamp we make him remove that also.

[Darryl D.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

We don't select the term "Matching Numbers" the seller writes the description. we are aware of a court case that has settled where the ruling was that a re stamped motor was not matching numbers. When if that case ever gets appealed it will become a federal law. If a seller states it is "matching numbers" that is his choice of words if it is not we make them remove it. Like wise if a seller states born with engine and it is a detectable re stamp we make him remove that also.

It sounds like the judge should have been schooled on what the general population has come to believe. "Matching numbers" by definition can mean many thing and when directed to engine pads can certainly mean just that, they are matching to what would be expected to see on an original "born with" engine stamping. To wit, a re-stamped engine certainly IS matching numbers by definition. "Born with" on the other hand leaves nothing to the imagination as to what the sellers is expecting a buyer to believe he is stating.

[Roy S.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

It sounds like the judge should have been schooled on what the general population has come to believe. "Matching numbers" by definition can mean many thing and when directed to engine pads can certainly mean just that, they are matching to what would be expected to see on an original "born with" engine stamping. To wit, a re-stamped engine certainly IS matching numbers by definition. "Born with" on the other hand leaves nothing to the imagination as to what the sellers is expecting a buyer to believe he is stating.

I did not respond to this thread to start a discussion on definitions which do net exist I simply have stated facts. I personally think the judge got it correct, numbers matching has no definition it was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing, by implying something that was a way to deceive. The judge has solved that problem and when it gets challenged I suspect it will be upheld in a federal court that will make it law.

[Darryl D.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I did not respond to this thread to start a discussion on definitions which do net exist I simply have stated facts. I personally think the judge got it correct, numbers matching has no definition it was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing, by implying something that was a way to deceive. The judge has solved that problem and when it gets challenged I suspect it will be upheld in a federal court that will make it law.

I understand that. However, I think this is a prime time for yourself or others to enter into this discussion as it effect not only NCRS but the entire hobby.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=SHlHXJTWKovZjgSO0L2gDw&q=matching+numbers+definition&btnK=Google+Search&oq=matching+numbers+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30.1764.10673..14608...0.0..0.189.3567.2j25......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0j0i22i10i30.a8TGb6yLmUE

Not much help when you add Webster's to the search as seen in this link:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=A35HXL_RKs2KtQXYnoWoBg&q=matching+numbers+webster%27s+definition&oq=matching+numbers+webster%27s+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.12...8179.18790..23217...0.0..0.151.1123.5j5......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i30.ZDmmY8DHq4I

Review and let the discussion begin.
I think most will agree that since the term was coined it has become a can of worms but now that it exists I think the HOBBY needs to establish a true definition and a correct term to indicate what a true definition of what an ORIGINAL engine can be defined with. Nothing new as forgeries have existed since the beginning of time of valued items. I don't know how much research the above subject judge did before rendering a judgment on the subject but as you read some of the above links you will see there is conflicting opinions of other law suit cases but of course there are always other extenuating circumstances.

[Nick C.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I'm fascinated.

What specific language would you use and how would you enforce adhesion?

[Dave P.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

Thank you for your comments, Roy. I appreciate the clarification.

Regarding the question "why are restomods doing so well, and the original cars are loosing interest, and prices are falling?"

Look no further than the above discussion of "matching numbers". People are tired of the BS, the deception, the mis-representation, and the outright fraud in the collector car hobby. Many people have been stung. They're weary of what is involved and the RISK of aspiring to own a Real Car. Restomods have modern conveniences. They are powerful, stop and handle well, the A/C works reliably, and EFI engines start reliably in any weather. No finicky carburetors, clunky transmission shifting, noises or fluid leaks. No one gives a **** about what numbers or dates are on anything. The primary consideration is to details of the build, particularly regarding quality.

[Michael J.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I'm fascinated.

What specific language would you use and how would you enforce adhesion?

+1, excellent question, and of course these kind of discussions never really go anywhere except off the rails........

[Gene M.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I'm fascinated.

What specific language would you use and how would you enforce adhesion?

OK here is my attempt at it. In NCRS world the word “wrong” has been a banned term to use. I propose NCRS start and take the lead by doing the same with “matching numbers”. Ban the term usage in any publication. Treat it as a swear word. In the case where one wants to express the engine is truely the original with infact the numbers a GM union employee put there when the car was born use the term “born with engine”. If the term “born with engine” is not used to represent the said car the automatic assumption will be it is a restamp. Soon the rest of the world will follow. They have pretty much with everything else.

[John D.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

Well said Roy Sinor you are a credit to the hobby.
What are the ramifications if a high bidder doesn't follow through or the buyer and seller agree to not to consummate the deal because they are in cahoots ? Is it against the law ? Does the auction house get their vig anyway ?

[Dick W.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I'm fascinated.

What specific language would you use and how would you enforce adhesion?

And who would pay for the E & O insurance if you made a mistake. I can see making any claims painting a great big target on your back, sorta like the tee shirts that were given out to the judgtes at the Bend National

[Bill M.]

Re: Original Corvette and Camaro prices at Barrett-Jackson Auction

I still believe that NCRS members ourselves are causing our own demise. Having to spend a fortune on a reproduction battery that lasts 2 or 3 years or original tire's that are unsafe to drive on just to gain a few points is nuts. I think that if the impossible parts were left out of judging we may attract a few young people and I mean like 40 years old. try to explain to your wife that you are spending 2K on a set of old tires while she is taking the kids to soccer practice in an 8 year old mini van.
Just my 2 cents
bill