Matching Motor Opinions Desired - NCRS Discussion Boards

Matching Motor Opinions Desired

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  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 31, 1988
    • 43191

    #31
    Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

    Originally posted by Darryl Dayton (63266)

    Well, first of all this is NOT my car so I am afraid of nothing and have no dog in this hunt.

    When I participate in a thread I try to read the entire thing.

    The OP indicates in his first post "Seller included the original motor but said not likely numbers matching. It has been sitting in his brother's barn for 19 years." "Car has ZZ4 crate motor replacing the 300HP 327. Powerglide has been replaced by 4 speed."

    To me, there is no indication that he is afraid of anything either. Sounds like a typical drive train swap of 20 years ago for someone that was far more interested in a hipo 4 speed car rather than a 300 h.p. powerglide car that simply set the engine that was in the car aside (be it original or not) and I certainly would not start looking at this car as a V.I.N. switched car based on any of this.


    Darryl------


    You're correct. My logic was somewhat faulty on this one. If the block stamped VIN derivative is legit (and I still highly suspect it is) and matches the VIN plate, that would support that the car is completely legit. It would NOT have been something someone would have had incentive to remove to "cleanse" the car.

    The real problem is the reported block casting number and dates. I just can't find anything to support the notion that the 3782870 was used for any 1966 Corvettes. It is true that this is a fairly early production car but it's not so early that 3782870 block could have been used for 1966 and that fact would be unknown. In other words, if the 3782870 block was in use by November, 1965, then there should have been a lot, or at least some, other 1966 Corvettes built prior to it with the same block. But, I can find no information to that end. The dates, if they are being reported correctly, don't make sense, either.

    In any event, I'll repeat what I've said MANY times before: whenever someone is buying a vintage Corvette, and especially a mid year, they should carefully inspect the car's VIN plate AND check the frame VIN derivative stamping. It's absolutely INSANE to be paying the kind of money these cars sell for without first determining the legitimacy of title to the car. Keep in mind that if a car is determined by a state DMV or law enforcement agency to be stolen, it is confiscated and the last owner is the one that suffers the total loss. It's NOT the guy that perpetrated the fraud in the first place (unless they are one and the same which is rarely the case at this point in history).
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley

    Comment

    • Michael F.
      Very Frequent User
      • December 31, 1992
      • 745

      #32
      Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

      where is motor located maybe someone could help you out getting it or storing it
      Michael


      70 Mulsanne Blue LT-1
      03 Electron Blue Z06

      Comment

      • Randy S.
        Expired
        • December 31, 2002
        • 586

        #33
        Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

        Gentlemen

        Thank you for your input.

        It is interesting that this thread started out as what should I do with the matching engine to now it is NOT likely this is the matching engine. I am reminded of the saying "be careful what you wish for"


        Just to be clear, the seller (owned since 1999) never said this was a matching engine, just the opposite. I was offered the engine if I wanted it. What happened to the car between 1966 and 1999 is any ones guess. We went to the barn because I thought I'd get some pictures and put the motor on ebay or craigslist.

        "In other words, if the 3782870 block was in use by November, 1965, then there should have been a lot, or at least some, other 1966 Corvettes built prior to it with the same block."


        So now what? I will be in the Sacramento area later this month and look at the motor again to verify block casting number but I can't imagine him getting it wrong. If it is an 870 block I will accept the wisdom of this panel that it is not the original motor which makes it an easy decision to sell the motor.

        Comment

        • Dan A.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • May 31, 1974
          • 1074

          #34
          Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

          Good plan. I would suggest getting the casting date and all the numbers on the stamp pad as well. At this point no one really knows what it actually is or was. It's all just guesses for now.

          Comment

          • Gene M.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • March 31, 1985
            • 4232

            #35
            Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

            If the poster is going to look more into the block casting....... I suggest verify the block source be it Flint or Tonawanda. There are differences in casting number size and machining that are unique to each manufacturing facility. That also can be said for the cylinder heads too. Those distinct features have been presented on this site.

            Comment

            • Randy S.
              Expired
              • December 31, 2002
              • 586

              #36
              Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

              Gene

              From my post#26

              "So I have a F1104HO assembly date of Nov 11 300HP powerglide. " Doesn't the F mean Flint casting?

              Randy

              Comment

              • Joe L.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • January 31, 1988
                • 43191

                #37
                Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

                Originally posted by Randy Swartout (39156)
                Gene

                From my post#26

                "So I have a F1104HO assembly date of Nov 11 300HP powerglide. " Doesn't the F mean Flint casting?

                Randy
                Randy-----

                The "F" prefix denotes "Flint Engine". All Corvette small blocks were machined and assembled at Flint. These small blocks were cast at Saginaw, MI. Your assembly date looks like it matches the car very well. I think the CASTING date could be June 30, 1965. That indicates a casting made well before the engine assembly which is unusual but not impossible. It would also explain why the 3782870 casting could have been used in a 1966. So, it's starting to look a lot more like this could very well be the original engine.
                In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                Comment

                • Joe R.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • February 28, 2002
                  • 1356

                  #38
                  Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

                  Originally posted by Randy Swartout (39156)
                  Gentlemen

                  I recently purchased a 66 Corvette. My prior corvette was a numbers matching small block but I was never into the flight judging.

                  My current 66, purchased this week, was modified by the seller, not an NCRS type. Car has ZZ4 crate motor replacing the 300HP 327. Powerglide has been replaced by 4 speed, car is currently rally red, originally 972 white, VBP suspension front and rear,etc.

                  Seller included the original motor but said not likely numbers matching. It has been sitting in his brother's barn for 19 years. So I check out the motor. Block 3782870 F305 date code ( June 30 05?). The car is a November 65 production date. Block has VIN NUMBER derivative and F0II4 HO ( Powerglide 327). Looks like a matching number motor to me!!! All there except carb as far as I could tell.

                  My dilemma, what should I do about the motor?

                  Motor is 500 miles away still in the sellers barn. I had no way to transport it home or a place to store it

                  It seems to me it would be prohibitive financially to restore the car back to original. Even with just matching motor, big NCRS judging hits for tranny and paint mods.

                  Option A pay for storage and offer to next "custodian". Storage costs may exceed value of motor.
                  Option B sell it. What would it be worth? 327 300HP sitting 19 years, PG suffix.

                  Randy

                  I will readily admit that I have "NCRS Disease," so my view on this is not shared by everyone. However, as owners of midyear Corvettes, I think we have sort of a moral responsibility to keep the original engine with the car for possible use by a future owner. There is a view that we are simply temporary stewards of these cars, and should not make irrevocable decisions that might dismay a future owner.

                  Most modifications to a midyear, such as an engine swap, a transmission swap, or a color change can easily be reversed by a future owner. But the loss of the original engine can not be reversed.

                  It's also worth noting that a midyear can still get a Top Flight with the wrong color paint. The incorrect 4-speed transmission might also be able to stay (I'd have to count judging points carefully, since you can only lose 270 points maximum to get a Top Flight). Or, the transmission could be swapped out for a Powerglide in a weekend.

                  However, the engine block alone in the ZZ4 engine is an automatic 350 point deduction. So, just that one difference excludes the possibility of getting a Top Flight. Do you really want to burn that bridge for some future owner?

                  It can be argued that a future owner could build a "correct" reproduction engine for this car if they really want an NCRS correct car, so there is no need for you to preserve the option for them to install the actual, real-deal original engine. However, many owners get particular pleasure from knowing that their car has it's original engine. And, some potential buyers will be more interested in the car if they know they have the option to install the original engine.

                  I would encourage you to get the original engine (if in fact it is the original engine) and find a way to store it safely for a future owner. Also, keep in mind that the original engine can easily be stroked to 350-383 CID and be made just as powerful (or more powerful) than the ZZ4 that is in the car right now. So maybe some day you could consider building up the original engine and selling the ZZ4 engine. That would be one way of solving the storage problem.

                  Comment

                  • Gene M.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • March 31, 1985
                    • 4232

                    #39
                    Re: Matching Motor Opinions Desired

                    Originally posted by Randy Swartout (39156)
                    Gene

                    From my post#26

                    "So I have a F1104HO assembly date of Nov 11 300HP powerglide. " Doesn't the F mean Flint casting?

                    Randy

                    Comment

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