Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

[James W.]

[Donald O.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Now I see diesel oils labeled as T3, T4, T5, T6. What the heck does this translate to?

Don

[Dick W.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Now I see diesel oils labeled as T3, T4, T5, T6. What the heck does this translate to?

Don

Don forget the marketing hype and look for the API specs. We want CJ or CK spec oils. They have enough ZDDP to satisfy the requirements of a flat tappet engine.

T-5 is semi synthetic and T-6 is full synthetic oil. I am a believer in synthetics, but older engines, at least C-3 and back do not have adequate sealing technology and you are asking to add to the oil leaks they are know to have when using synthetics. My favorite expression, when describing synthetic usage in older engines, is that they will invent new places to leak. My experience with synthetics goes back to the mid '80's if not earlier when I was in fleet maintenance management

[Owen L.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

The machinist who rebuilt my '72's 454 with hydraulic flat-tappet lifters a couple months ago recommended Driven brand HR5 10W-40@ $8/qt. Summit racing will do free shipping on orders over $100 and a case of oil and a filter qualifies. (He also recommended Wix filters.)

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/jgr-03806

[Duke W.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Eight bucks a quart! Never heard of it. Is it API rated? If so, what is the rating? What's the P and/or Zn concentration?


Duke

[Owen L.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Have you bought oil lately? Seems Pennzoil, Mobile 1, Quakerstate, Valvoline, etc. are all right in the $8 bucks a quart range (or more).

Here's the Driven Oil website to read it's history: https://www.drivenracingoil.com/about-us
An article on ZDP: https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/pro...p-engine-oils/
An article on API ratings: https://tech.drivenracingoil.com/motor-oil-measure/ (about 1/2 down is where the author talks about API and Driven oils)

This machinist does most of his business in performance and racing engines. He also understood my needs for keeping block numbers undisturbed and building within the parameters of stock components while maximizing my desire for slight performance upgrades. Other than that I don't know much else other than I trust my machinist to recommend an oil that performs well and meets the needs of the cam and lifters.

[Billy S.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

So after re-reading Duke's article and looking at a spec sheet for a CK-4/SN oil (Delo 400 SDE SAE 15W-40), the way I read it (and I'm certianly no expert, so please feel free to tell me I'm wrong) this CK-4/SN oil does not have enough zinc for flat tappet engines.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/PDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=481951&docFormat=PDF

The way I read the spec sheet, it has .08% zinc which is 800ppm which is less then the value of 1200ppm that Duke suggests is desireable (his range is between 1000ppm and 1400ppm by my reading).

So if I've read everything right... and I'm properly able to make inferencences, the only way this oil passes the old CJ-4 spec is through other additives? So that begs the question, are those other additives controling the wear in our engines too?

Sorry for the zillion questions.

Billy

[Duke W.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Read the spec sheet CAREFULLY. Chevron claims a "unique anti-wear additive" that I think is boron based and "up to 68 percent improved wear protection", and it is backward compatible with previous C-category oil. There's another anti-wear additive in addition to ZDDP, but it may be proprietary or patented, so they don't say much about it. The Ck-4 anti-wear test is just as rigorous as CJ-4 and is more rigorous than the S-category anti-wear test.

Not all CK-4 brands have reduced P and Zn. Look at the CK-4 spec sheets for Shell, Mobil, Valvoline and any others you can find. What do they list as the P and Zn concentrations? Use them and don' t buy Delo. There are dozens of CK-4 brands out there.

Duke

[Billy S.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

Thanks Duke,

Let me put my main question at the top here: Is any oil with CK-4 acceptable, or is it important to identify those with proper Zn and P concentrations?

For instance, last night I looked at the product sheets for the other oils you suggested and none listed P or Zn concentrations. The only thing I found was this: https://pqia.org/heavy-duty-diesel-engine-oil/ which appears to be some testing service/body??? of which I have no idea the quality... Do you know about their quality?

Two things I noticed by looking at their data (which of course is all subject to their quality)

1. The Zn and P of the CK-4 oils they tested are not globally above 1,000ppm, it appears to be brand specific.
2. Shell Rotella T4 was tested twice (the only one) there was significant (~10%), but not ouside of your range difference in results: http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html, http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_752018.html

My goal is not to be a PITA, but rather to understand which oils I can safely use. I appreciate your time and your knowledge.

To finish the conversation about Delo 400SDE and the API CK-4 specification, does the specification cover engines with sliding surfaces like ours? (I don't know much of anything about diesel engine construction.) If so why is the boron based wear protection additive something to avoid, or is it just a matter of not knowing, so why risk it?

Thank you!

Billy

[Duke W.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

As I said in my oil article, ANY current C-category oil from a supplier you consider reputable is okay to use. Brand makes no difference.

And I explained in my oil article why C-category oil is superior to current S-category types for vintage engines with sliding surface valve trains.

I never said anything about avoiding Boron.

I ran across pqia.org a few years ago when I was looking for info on Walmart's SuperTech CJ-4, and it tested well within range of other CJ-4 brands. It appears to be a good source for researching the technical details of engine oil products. Their chemical analyses are more comprehensive than typical brand spec sheets, and I notice that for elements associated with anti-wear additives they list Boron and Molybdenum in addition to the common Phosphorous and Zinc. Though the Delo CK-4 was only around 800 ppm P, it has 350 ppm, Valvoline's CK-4 was about 1100/1200 P/Zn, but essentially no Boron. Take your pick. Flip a coin, but don't obsess over it. They both pass the CK-4 wear test suite.

I don't get hung up on specific numbers. I trust the API test suites including the wear tests, and as I said in my oil article the C-Category tests are a higher hurdle than the S-category tests. If a blender finds a way to pass the C-category wear tests with only 800 ppm P, so be it.

I continue to buy current C-category 15W-40 for all my vintage cars with sliding surface valve trains from a convenient source with low prices, and that happens to be Walmart. I'll buy the least expensive 15W-40 C-category oil they have in stock, which is usually their SuperTech house blend, however I recall a few years ago finding Delo less, so that's what I bought on that trip. The last time I purchased a couple of gallons of SuperTech 15W-40 CK-4, was late last year and it was slightly less than ten bucks a gallon.

Everyone if free to do their own research and draw their own conclusions. There's nothing more that I can add, but thanks for reminding me of the pqia.org Web site. It appears to be an excellent source for engine oil comparisons and compliance with API certifications. I'll keep checking back hoping to find a test on SuperTech CK-4.

Duke

[Robert B.]

Re: Best Engine Oil with enough Zinc

This is what I used in my '86 for years. No issues and very cheap at Walmart!