3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Thanks for the ebay link order order one today.

Thanks again Bob

Glad you got one. It's a nice kit. I bought 2 a few years ago for stock and glad I had them for the above work.

Most importantly, when pressing out your old bearing remember to carefully size the deep socket for clearance down into the WP snout. Use a caliper and measure the new bearing OD and select a socket that it's OD is smaller than the bearing by a good margin. When installing the new bearing you may need a slightly larger socket OD to properly contact the outer case of the new bearing. The bearing needs to be flush with the WP snout when done.

A few pics of what I'm describing below. This one is a BB pump but similar process for SB.

Also, this new type of one-piece seal..... I add a little dab of sealer, not only on it's OD, but I put a small amount on it's ID and a dab on the shaft. THIS seal ID contact area is the ONLY surface that seals water out beside the ceramic disk and hardened metal ring of the seal assembly. The old design sealed at the cast iron impeller with a rubber ring under the seal metal disk. This new type is totally different and seals at it's ID sleeve. Pics of that below too for reference.

If you should ever have questions when you rebuild your pump just gimme a yell.

Rich

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

As a follow up to the casting flaw in the reproduction 609 pump......

I had a long talk with my vendor yesterday about it. This is the FIRST casting flawed pump they have encountered. I sent them the above photo package from this thread. He was dismayed to see the flaws. I also discussed my concern regarding other castings, in particular the Master Cylinders and other cast brake parts like wheel cylinders etc.

He's going to review this with their technical staff and likely ask me to return the pump for their analysis. I told him I bought it over 3 years ago(I found my old invoice) and it sat on a shelf waiting for it to be used. I said I understand that my warranty expired, so I was going to smash it with a sledge hammer to get a good look at the internal cast iron to see if I could see impurities, possible air pockets or termites or something.

He told me please don't do that as they may want it back intact for their own plans. He also hinted I will be compensated for it's cost and I'll probably get a full refund in this unusual case. He's great to work with.

I also discussed my opinions about the last 5 to 10 years that over the most recent years the reproduction parts have become much more problematic and the hit rate for modifying repro parts to make them fit or work has been going way up over recent times. I told him I will share my "POS-List" with him when I get time. He is eager to see it and to try to help make things better.

Rich

[Edward B.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Same church, different pew. The number of defective electrical parts right from the box is epidemic. Certainly makes one doubt one's diagnostic skill when a new part does not cure the problem or the problem reappears shortly after part replacement. I don't remember these difficulties when parts were made in the USA.

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

As a follow up to the casting flaw in the reproduction 609 pump......

I had a long talk with my vendor yesterday about it. This is the FIRST casting flawed pump they have encountered. I sent them the above photo package from this thread. He was dismayed to see the flaws. I also discussed my concern regarding other castings, in particular the Master Cylinders and other cast brake parts like wheel cylinders etc.

He's going to review this with their technical staff and likely ask me to return the pump for their analysis. I told him I bought it over 3 years ago(I found my old invoice) and it sat on a shelf waiting for it to be used. I said I understand that my warranty expired, so I was going to smash it with a sledge hammer to get a good look at the internal cast iron to see if I could see impurities, possible air pockets or termites or something.

He told me please don't do that as they may want it back intact for their own plans. He also hinted I will be compensated for it's cost and I'll probably get a full refund in this unusual case. He's great to work with.

I also discussed my opinions about the last 5 to 10 years that over the most recent years the reproduction parts have become much more problematic and the hit rate for modifying repro parts to make them fit or work has been going way up over recent times. I told him I will share my "POS-List" with him when I get time. He is eager to see it and to try to help make things better.

Rich

Tell him to STOP SOURCING REPRODUCTION PARTS OUTSIDE THE USA. China produces junk be it sheet metal, castings, ball bearings everything is inferior. Vendors are not shy about the charges for these parts now start supplying USA made parts that actually fit and function.

Understand I will not buy any Corvette part that made in china, just put it back.

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Edward, I seem to be the one constantly being tested, along with my restoration and diagnostic skills. I too have had "double trouble" and it takes much time to diagnose. That latest with 2 bad MADE IN USA Voltage Regulators was special.

Gene, even USA quality is questionable on occasion. Most new cars have parts sourced from Asia, with China included, so next time you buy a new car keep that in mind. If you decide to not buy a new car because it has Chinese parts in it, you may have trouble getting around. My 2007 Corvette instruments and electronics include circuit boards and digital/analog electronic components, most sourced everywhere BUT the USA. Taiwan Semiconductor is one of the largest fab facilities in the world.

I know this, as my 30+ year career in electronics back from the 70's on, saw in the mid to late 80's that all Integrated Circuit fabrication facilities moved out of the US and built huge facilities overseas. I'm not sure if ANY are left here as I've been out of the industry for quite a while. I'd be surprised to find any here.

Rich

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

...............
Gene, even USA quality is questionable on occasion. Most new cars have parts sourced from Asia, with China included, so next time you buy a new car keep that in mind. If you decide to not buy a new car because it has Chinese parts in it, you may have trouble getting around. My 2007 Corvette instruments and electronics include circuit boards and digital/analog electronic components, most sourced everywhere BUT the USA. Taiwan Semiconductor is one of the largest fab facilities in the world.
......................


Rich

I will take my chances on a USA piece over china 100% of the time.

Exactly why I would not buy a new "toy". Case towards my point, u joints, roller chain, sealed ball bearings, and hydraulic cylinders should last more than 5 years normal use. A name brand American tractor having all these components sourced from china has all failed prematurely on me. I don't abuse my equipment. It see excellent maintenance.

In fact car hauler trailer tires are all china, three blow outs with new tires. Ya can't find American trailer tires.

Don't try welding china sheet metal, it just disintegrates. When ever an appliance goes it's 90% of the time the computer. Case in point hot water tanks. Where are the computes from.....china. Replacement computer cost almost the same as new tank.

Yes you are correct a vehicle is only partial made in USA. But my new policy is to lease the damn thing. But I want my "toys" all American. And yes that does make for issues when something needs to be replaced. Fix the old one or source a NOS or used piece.

Explaining that stuff is sourced out of the USA does not justify it.

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich------


I see you have learned that when pressing the bearing into the casting you MUST press against the body of the pump and NOT the legs. Doing the latter will almost guarantee a broken casting.

These mechanical seals are usually either carbon-ceramic or carbon-carbon whether of the one piece (as pictured) or two piece variety (as original). I don't know of any that use hardened steel in place of the carbon or ceramic. The critical part of the seal is the interface between the carbon ring and the ceramic or carbon ring. This is where the critical sealing takes place. If these surfaces are even slightly damaged or otherwise imperfect, the seal will leak. Even perfect there will be some slight leakage. That's why waterpump castings have a weep hole.

I don't know that I would have rebuilt the casting pictured. It looks like it has significant corrosion damage on the rear cover gasket surface. Using sealer on the gasket might overcome this but I'd be leery of it.

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Edward, I seem to be the one constantly being tested, along with my restoration and diagnostic skills. I too have had "double trouble" and it takes much time to diagnose. That latest with 2 bad MADE IN USA Voltage Regulators was special.

Gene, even USA quality is questionable on occasion. Most new cars have parts sourced from Asia, with China included, so next time you buy a new car keep that in mind. If you decide to not buy a new car because it has Chinese parts in it, you may have trouble getting around. My 2007 Corvette instruments and electronics include circuit boards and digital/analog electronic components, most sourced everywhere BUT the USA. Taiwan Semiconductor is one of the largest fab facilities in the world.

I know this, as my 30+ year career in electronics back from the 70's on, saw in the mid to late 80's that all Integrated Circuit fabrication facilities moved out of the US and built huge facilities overseas. I'm not sure if ANY are left here as I've been out of the industry for quite a while. I'd be surprised to find any here.

Rich

Rich-------


Yes, new cars are full of components sourced from China, Taiwan and elsewhere foreign. However, there's a BIG difference between the actual manufacturing source of these parts and the the "reproduction" parts for older applications. The parts used in new cars are sourced from TIER 1 OEM MANUFACTURERS. There are high quality standards and these are enforced by the OEM manufacturers.

The "reproduction" parts of which we speak here do not originate from TIER 1 OEM MANUFACTURERS. Many Chinese aftermarket parts don't, either. They originate from manufacturers "way down the totem pole". These manufacturers have very limited resources, very obsolete and dilapidated facilities, and crude tooling. They operate on the basis of "unlimited cheap labor makes up for all of the aforementioned". It doesn't.

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Gene, It doesn't justify it, but it's the way it is.

Joe, I looked at that mating surface and it is fine. There may be a few shadows left over from media blasting but no serious pitting there. I did have a drip coming from the backplate but was able to snug up the bolts a little more and now it's fine. This after a high temperature heat soak as well.

Rich

[James G.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Here are some photos of a NOS 609 I recently traded to MOCK.
GM Yellow and Black box
Group no 1.069
Part no. 3787566

[James G.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

HEAD MARK = U

[Richard G.]

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

I thought this thread would be an appropriate place to suggest this. Being in NCRS it is frowned on to alter casting numbers and dates, what about this. Wouldn’t it be more correct to alter the casting number of a GM casting rather than substitute a fake casting on non GM manufacture to “act as the same”? Neither the reproduction non GM casting nor the altered GM casting being correct and either situation is a forgery. Thoughts?