3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

[Richard M.]

Pictures say many words. Another reproduction part bites the dust. This now adds to the prior total of 21 reproduction items on this car, making it defective reproduction item #22. That's right, I'm keeping a count and will be writing emails to ALL of my suppliers so they can fix this. It is getting out of control. This is what made me look up with the car on the lift after some test runs yesterday.....

looks like blood I said. Nope. I looked up and saw a drip on the bottom of the balancer. More pics below.

So I am in dire need (scratch that!.....my friend John Baldwin read this, called me, and just dropped off 3 pumps, one of which that I will blast, rebuild, and paint and be done with this today!)..of a REAL GM 3782609 water pump(with the proper bypass elbow threads in the boss), so I can rebuild the stinking thing myself so I know it's done right. The last 4 water pumps I have acquired, both bog block and small block, have each had some form of unacceptable issue and I have had to RE-Rebuild them all.

The above repro 609 pump was coming off anyways, as it's making noise, likely the stamped steel impeller is hitting something, so I was going to rebuild myself. Now I just noticed the cast iron itself is junk.

Rich
PS At least I have other reproduction junk like door panel lock knobs and bad voltage regulators and so much more to work on while scouring the planet for a good water pump.

[Frederick W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich I feel like you do with the reproduction. I know are very high that I will either have to fight with or modify the part when you get it. I feel in a lot of cases, the parent or founder has pass the business down and the one who took over does not have the pride in what they are putting out. If they are the only kid on the block with the toy, they feel to bad if you don't like it. We have your money

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

I have learned one thing in the years of working on restoration. STAY AWAY FROM REPRODUCTION PARTS THAT REQUIRE FUNCTION. Always use the original stuff and just restore it. About the only things that I can live with are reproduction parts "that do not function doing anything". Things like emblems, lens, chrome pieces, interior soft parts, and plastic trim. Something like a fuel pump, ball joint, starter, voltage regulator, directional & cancel cam, alternator, master cylinder, water pump, wire harness needs to be original or original restored. Operability, and function are first requirement otherwise the part is worthless. I can live with a bit of fitting a part but failure of said part is not acceptable.

I have found a few "operable items" in reproduction, aftermarket offerings that are very good such as radiator, expansion tank, exhaust, brake and fuel lines, glass, brake calipers, master cylinders (quite costly), cams, lifters, timing chain, pistons, rods, valves, oil pumps. While jobber offerings with parts necessary to rebuild/restore starters, alternators, carbs, wire harness, generators, water pumps, fuel pumps, etc all of good quality components made in USA that I've used successfully.

But I have to say as a general statement if you want something done right ya have to do it yourself.

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich-------


Inferior tooling= inferior parts.

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

I agree Gene. But not everyone can.
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Another one, this is defective reproduction part #23. I went to drain the water and the aluminum petcock wing stripped it's splines from the threaded bleeder. I had to use a Easy-Out to drain the radiator.


So here it is. Most certainly cast iron porosity. Those bumps were the paint. I scraped it off after I shot some photos.
Hmm, I wonder where the reproduction Master Cylinders are cast.


BTW, I did a experiment to remove the pump. I replaced each bolt one at a time with a stud. The pump slipped right over the 4 studs and off it came. I had a backup safety block under the front of the engine block, but the 4 studs held everything fine.

[Domenic T.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich,
Everyone heard me complain about this but I'm going to say it again.
ALL my rubber boots, shift, clutch rod, clutch fork, emgcy brake boots. all crumpled up before the car ever started. The car never left the shop.
I since bought another shift er boot and it rotted in the package.

Dom

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich-------

Inferior tooling= inferior parts.

Joe, I do this on purpose. I'm trying to find every repro part that is defective so we all can avoid them!

Case in point. No more repro water pumps for me. This was my first ever. I bought it 2 years ago and it sat on a shelf until just under a month ago. So therefore I have to eat the $275 bargain price I paid and spend hours restoring and rebuilding a 50+ year old pump......

....that will at least be dry on the outside under the paint.

===

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Water pump at $275 don't sound like a bargain. The parts to rebuild a water pump if you stay away from the Corvette vendors should not put you anywhere near that expenditure. In fact a purchased rebuilt pump from the local auto parts house, take it apart and use the pieces to rebuild your original is a cost effective way to go. Done that a few time when I ran out of parts. Just go with quality rebuild and you will get the ceramic seals with stainless ring and spring. Of course one needs a hydraulic press and some enginuity. After all this is N..C.. Restoration..S and to have results one wants takes some extra effort. Can't alway's be just bolt it on.

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Joe, I do this on purpose. I'm trying to find every repro part that is defective so we all can avoid them!

Case in point. No more repro water pumps for me. This was my first ever. I bought it 2 years ago and it sat on a shelf until just under a month ago. So therefore I have to eat the $275 bargain price I paid and spend hours restoring and rebuilding a 50+ year old pump......

....that will at least be dry on the outside under the paint.

===

Rich-----


Most, if not all, cast iron reproduction castings are sourced from China these days and they don't come from tier 1, Chinese OEM suppliers..

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Water pump at $275 don't sound like a bargain. The parts to rebuild a water pump if you stay away from the Corvette vendors should not put you anywhere near that expenditure. In fact a purchased rebuilt pump from the local auto parts house, take it apart and use the pieces to rebuild your original is a cost effective way to go. Done that a few time when I ran out of parts. Just go with quality rebuild and you will get the ceramic seals with stainless ring and spring. Of course one needs a hydraulic press and some enginuity. After all this is N..C.. Restoration..S and to have results one wants takes some extra effort. Can't alway's be just bolt it on.

Gene,

I have several rebuild kits with cast iron impellers and am rebuilding a good core I just media blasted. Some of my older kits have stamped steel impellers. Pics Below.

Rich-----

Most, if not all, cast iron reproduction castings are sourced from China these days and they don't come from tier 1, Chinese OEM suppliers..

Joe, Evidence of that abounds today. How on earth can a cast iron pump weep at it's face? It must be impurities in the molten iron. I had a Wilton Vice once that broke in half and Wilton honored a replacement after I sent them macro photos of the casting flaws. That was over 7 years ago. This is getting worse.

BTW, Did you ask long ago about the SB vs BB Water Pump Seals and if different. I just got some measurements for reference. Yes they're different. See below.

Rich
PS BTW, The other day I had 2, yes that's 2, BAD NAPA "MADE IN USA" 1961 Corvette replacement Voltage Regulators. I had to prove it to them with a test meter I brought with me to the counter. They got me the top quality, also MADE IN USA replacement later in the day. It was fine and works fine in the car. SO this crud is showing up from everywhere.

[Mike E.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich,
You didn't identify the year of the car, but since it is a 609 water pump, I have to surmise 61-62. Seeing the slotted screw heads on the timing chain cover surprises me. Methinks those should be dished hex head 1/4x20 bolts.
Also, I understand what Gene is saying, but as you know, an original 609 pump needing rebuilt is significantly more than the $275 you paid for the repop.

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich,
You didn't identify the year of the car, but since it is a 609 water pump, I have to surmise 61-62. Seeing the slotted screw heads on the timing chain cover surprises me. Methinks those should be dished hex head 1/4x20 bolts.
Also, I understand what Gene is saying, but as you know, an original 609 pump needing rebuilt is significantly more than the $275 you paid for the repop.

Mike, yes a 1961. When I assembled the engine I was unsure, but the JG states '61 uses the slotted screw and '62 uses the bolts....Page 230 in my 6th Edition. Unless something new was learned and different now.

Thanks for noticing that. I think I'm okay though. I have those bolts if I need to change them and now would be the time.

Rich

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Actually the sheet metal impeller if you want to spend some time welding and boxing the thing could produce some good results. But for the "average" guy the original cast impeller is just fine.

As long as your car came with an original 3859326 or 3782609 water pump casting to restore that reduces the size of the battle. Keep in mind the casting number or date is only worth 20% as long as the configuration is correct. Again I suggest to spend $ wisely. Pick up truck w/p can be "corrected" to look like passenger car w/p's. Also requires a bit of time and skill to pull off.

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Gene,

I have several rebuild kits with cast iron impellers and am rebuilding a good core I just media blasted. Some of my older kits have stamped steel impellers. Pics Below.


Joe, Evidence of that abounds today. How on earth can a cast iron pump weep at it's face? It must be impurities in the molten iron. I had a Wilton Vice once that broke in half and Wilton honored a replacement after I sent them macro photos of the casting flaws. That was over 7 years ago. This is getting worse.

BTW, Did you ask long ago about the SB vs BB Water Pump Seals and if different. I just got some measurements for reference. Yes they're different. See below.

Rich
PS BTW, The other day I had 2, yes that's 2, BAD NAPA "MADE IN USA" 1961 Corvette replacement Voltage Regulators. I had to prove it to them with a test meter I brought with me to the counter. They got me the top quality, also MADE IN USA replacement later in the day. It was fine and works fine in the car. SO this crud is showing up from everywhere.

Rich------

With a casting, a lot of things have to be right to end up with a good product. In this case, it probably was a case of slag that got into the molten metal. You can be sure that the kind of foundries producing these castings don't have metallurgical quality control staffs. I'll bet you'd find that they are about as crude a facility as you could imagine and, as could be expected, what comes out of them is equally crude.

Most, if not all GM waterpumps were cast of gray cast iron, the same material as engine blocks and heads. This is pretty much the lowest grade of cast iron. I expect that the foreign castings are also of gray cast iron (unless they've come up with an even lower grade) but the metallurgical and casting quality leaves a lot to be desired.

Many other GM castings of the day were not gray cast iron, though. Examples are 65-72 calipers, 65-72+ master cylinders, rear carrier housings, flywheels, cast axle flanges, rear caliper brackets, etc. These were cast of nodular, ductile, or malleable cast iron. These are much stronger materials, approaching the strength of steel. However, I HIGHLY doubt that Chinese-sourced reproductions of any of these pieces are actually cast from the stronger cast iron. I expect most, if not all, are gray iron and, likely, inferior gray iron. That worries me. Some time ago I inquired of one of the commisioning reproduction sources what material the calipers were made of. I got no response (which answered my question by default). So, the "beauty" of many of these reproduction castings is only "skin deep".

The 1955-70 small block and 1965-74 big block waterpump seals are definitely different. That's partly because the small block pumps of that period used the "small" bearing and shaft assembly (5/8" shaft through the bearings). Big blocks always used the "large" bearing and shaft assembly (3/4" shaft through the bearings). However, the 1971-82 small block waterpumps used the "large" bearing and shaft assembly. I don't know if those seals are the same as big block, though. They definitely did not use the same seal as 1955-70 pumps.

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard WE need a place were we can post alist of all these POS parts. If eyeryone stops buying them maybe the vendors will find a better part but everyone needs to know what parts are junk. Also i picked a 493 pump for my 59 at spring carlisle that needs rebuilt were did you buy the kits with the cast iron impellers or do you feel the steel impellers are just as good?

THANKS BOB