3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

[Gene M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard WE need a place were we can post alist of all these POS parts. If eyeryone stops buying them maybe the vendors will find a better part but everyone needs to know what parts are junk. Also i picked a 493 pump for my 59 at spring carlisle that needs rebuilt were did you buy the kits with the cast iron impellers or do you feel the steel impellers are just as good?

THANKS BOB

Bob
I suggest to "acquire" any pump of said vintage and remove the cast impeller from it to use in your "correct" pump. The sheet metal impeller without any rework is NOT a good choice.

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Gene The pump i picked up has the cast impeller. I would like to put a new one if i could find a kit with one.

THANKS BOB

[Joe L.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Gene The pump i picked up has the cast impeller. I would like to put a new one if i could find a kit with one.

THANKS BOB

Bob------


Often times these cast impellers suffer from significant corrosion or cavitation damage. I've taken apart some cheap rebuilt pumps in which original cast iron impellers were re-used. In some cases, it looked like about half of the original cast iron was gone! The cast impellers are definitely re-usable but if they suffer from any significant corrosion damage, I wouldn't re-use them.

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Gents, I just finished the rebuild and painted it and quitting for the day. Going to eat dinner but when I get back i will explain......

...why YOU CANNOT use your old cast iron impeller with the new kits. I'll tell you where I get the good kits too.

Joe, I didn't read your last post yet but I will later.

Rich

[Frank D.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

I sold my real-deal '609', Bill Mock restored pump last winter Rich....never mounted. I would have sold it to you reasonably and saved your sanity...
I still chuckle when I remember the mess we had at your place with my SWC '608' pump when you rebuilt it...errr, twice -- or was it three times?
(*GRIN*)

[Thomas H.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

PS BTW, The other day I had 2, yes that's 2, BAD NAPA "MADE IN USA" 1961 Corvette replacement Voltage Regulators. I had to prove it to them with a test meter I brought with me to the counter. They got me the top quality, also MADE IN USA replacement later in the day. It was fine and works fine in the car. SO this crud is showing up from everywhere.

Same here - just last weekend I had the 60 out for a bit. When I got home, I popped the hood and saw the top of the battery all wet. Checked the charging voltage - over 15v at idle and up to 17 when revved. I just put that regulator in last spring (NAPA part) and the car had maybe 100 mile put on it. I put in an original from my 58 (that was not used in the car since the date was not correct). I had it gone through by our local generator/regulator guy a while back and it works just fine. 14v all day long = happy battery.

I've been thinking about restoring my 60 but knowing what I went through with the 58 and reading your recent experiences, I may rethink my plans - maybe just keep it as is - a pretty original well running driver.

Keep up the good fight!

Tom

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

After dinner I fell asleep on the couch so I'll follow up now....

Bob------
Often times these cast impellers suffer from significant corrosion or cavitation damage. I've taken apart some cheap rebuilt pumps in which original cast iron impellers were re-used. In some cases, it looked like about half of the original cast iron was gone! The cast impellers are definitely re-usable but if they suffer from any significant corrosion damage, I wouldn't re-use them.

Bob, Joe, Today's kits use different sized shaft diameters and therefore have different sized ID's for the hub and impeller. Plus the ceramic seal design has totally changed. Thjerfore, one cannot use original GM impellers and hubs with the new rebuild kits. I had extensive discussions with one of the rebuld kits suppliers. They have gone metric for the above items, (excluding bearing OD size which must be to original GM spec of course), and therefore a original hub and impeller will slide onto the shafts with them beingapx 0.005" oversize.

This thread, and the attached document in post#2 will describe.

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthread.php?115644-Small-Block-Water-Pump-Hubs&p=788040#post788040

Bob, The last few kits I bought with cast iron impellers were from John Meissinger in Oregon. Note these are the new design.

Ebay Link

Rich------

With a casting, a lot of things have to be right to end up with a good product. In this case, it probably was a case of slag that got into the molten metal. You can be sure that the kind of foundries producing these castings don't have metallurgical quality control staffs. I'll bet you'd find that they are about as crude a facility as you could imagine and, as could be expected, what comes out of them is equally crude.

Most, if not all GM waterpumps were cast of gray cast iron, the same material as engine blocks and heads. This is pretty much the lowest grade of cast iron. I expect that the foreign castings are also of gray cast iron (unless they've come up with an even lower grade) but the metallurgical and casting quality leaves a lot to be desired.

Many other GM castings of the day were not gray cast iron, though. Examples are 65-72 calipers, 65-72+ master cylinders, rear carrier housings, flywheels, cast axle flanges, rear caliper brackets, etc. These were cast of nodular, ductile, or malleable cast iron. These are much stronger materials, approaching the strength of steel. However, I HIGHLY doubt that Chinese-sourced reproductions of any of these pieces are actually cast from the stronger cast iron. I expect most, if not all, are gray iron and, likely, inferior gray iron. That worries me. Some time ago I inquired of one of the commisioning reproduction sources what material the calipers were made of. I got no response (which answered my question by default). So, the "beauty" of many of these reproduction castings is only "skin deep".

The 1955-70 small block and 1965-74 big block waterpump seals are definitely different. That's partly because the small block pumps of that period used the "small" bearing and shaft assembly (5/8" shaft through the bearings). Big blocks always used the "large" bearing and shaft assembly (3/4" shaft through the bearings). However, the 1971-82 small block waterpumps used the "large" bearing and shaft assembly. I don't know if those seals are the same as big block, though. They definitely did not use the same seal as 1955-70 pumps.

Very informative Joe, thanks. Here's another scary one I just thought of. My home well water pump......

Last week was a leaky week. I had a leaky FI Fuel Meter housing to high pressure pump, fixed that with Jim Lockwood's and John DeGregory's help. 50+ year old part so not anything to anger me. I fixed it by lapping the housing flat and all good. FI unit runs like a dream.

Then a exhaust leak. Left manifold bolt wasn't tight at the #1 cylinder. Still there so I think needs more thought.

Then a oil leak at the FI distributor oil line because me forgot to tighten it after reinstalling the distributor because I was off a tooth. Oil all over the bellhousing. Fixed that with a 3/8" ATF crowfoot wrench and cleaned my mess.

Now this 609 water pump leak. Geesh, Gimmie a break.

So, house water pump? Just after I fixed that leaky FI Fuel Meter hosuing, I installed the High Pressure pump and put some fuel in the Fuel Meter. I saw a drip at the bottom. I went to tighten the 5 10-32 screws up a tad more.......squish, one of them stripped the housing threads. Just then, and this happens ALL the time around here, my wife comes running in and is hysterically telling me the house water pump has a broken pipe and there's a geyser shooting up 50 PSI water from the 1 1/4" pressure line in the air all over the place.

Needless to say I had to put the Corvette fun aside and proceeded to repair the pipe but while I was at it I had a brand new water pump in a box(for 2 years) in the garage as a spare, so I installed that too. Turned out to be a 3 hour job.

So now I'm worried about my new water pump casting. When I bought the pump, I made sure it was USA made. I'm worried now it was made here from China castings.

I sold my real-deal '609', Bill Mock restored pump last winter Rich....never mounted. I would have sold it to you reasonably and saved your sanity...
I still chuckle when I remember the mess we had at your place with my SWC '608' pump when you rebuilt it...errr, twice -- or was it three times?
(*GRIN*)

Frank, I will never forget that.

Gents, you will laugh at my silly mistake.....In my haste, I used a 7/8" deep socket to push the bearing out, but it was a IMPACT 7/8" socket and the OD was too big. This is what happens when you use the wrong socket....(The JB Weld worked great and it's still running fine in Frank's car!)

(if you believe the JB Weld story you are way too gullible)

Oh, but there's more. Franks car had a replacement pump for the SHP cars with the bypass elbow, but it's a 250hp car. I convinced him to change it. I had a old 608 core(the above WP), so I was going to rebuild it for Frank and donate the core to him. Hour job, right? Even with paint dry time and we could shoot the baloney while waiting. Nope.

After I broke it, I called my buddy Chuck and if he had another 608 core. He did, so Frank and I drove over to get it. Came back and I rebuilt it. It had a leaky something or other, I forget. Pulled it out.

So then I decided to buy a rebuilt original complete 608 from my supplier. Two days later it arrives. I paint it. I put it on the car. Take the car for a test drive. Come back.......Making noise at the bearing. I grab the fan(engine off of course), and get about 1/4" sideplay in the WP bearing. It came from that "CALIFORNIA" rebuilder, that one with the lambchop raised geographical area name!

So I tore it apart, replaced the junk bearing with a new kit, MYSELF, and put it on the car and all was fine.

===

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Do you have any contact information for John ?


Thanks Bob

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Do you have any contact information for John ?


Thanks Bob

Bob, I don't have his phone# handy but here is a email I have for him, not sure if current....

corvettespecialties AT yahoo DOT com


Rich

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Thanks if you find his phone number please post it.

Thank you Bob

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Sorry Bob I looked and cannot find it. Google may though.

Update on the water pump woes. I successfully rebuilt one yesterday afternoon, painted before dinner, installed it today, and it's functioning perfectly with no leaking casting like that piece of junk reproduction pump. It's not a '609, but it'll be fine until my friend locates one later. We decided to forgo the $750 rebuilt by whoever-it-is '609 with the pitted backplate on ebay for now and get the basic function of a water pump working with a good casting.

...Or this one I just noticed a tad less, at $725, but with a $300 core charge!(I really think it should be worded "Core Credit", unless he's really charging $1,025 for the one listed. Confusing.). Regardless...... So send in your real rebuildable 609, and pay a whopping $425 for a rebuild? Wow. I am simply amazed.

A barrage of rebuild photos below. NOTE: I used a 13/16" deep socket , NOT a 7/8" deep socket to remove the old bearing with the press. Most rebuild instructions say to use a 7/8". Be aware that many sockets have wall thickness variations and you do not want to damage the pump.

That repro pump required the use of two water pump pulley reinforcements to get proper belt alignment. Only one 3720616 pulley reinforcement is called for in the AIMs. That repro pump had it's hub incorrectly positioned too far on the shaft by about 0.050, so I had to use 2 reinforcements originally at engine build: Just another anomaly of rearranging deck chairs on that Titanical Pump. The spec is 5 5/8" (5.625") from the pump mount surface faces to the top of the fan hub. If that pump casting wasn't defective, I could have used a 3 jaw puller to carefully pull the hub out to spec, but go too far out and the pump MUST come apart to drive it back down as the impeller shaft end must be held steadfast.

When I rebuilt the "good cast iron" donor pump, I set this spec more accurately. I set the hub to spec so that only one reinforcement was necessary as originally designed. The reinforcement is approximately 0.040" thick. Mores details about ancillary pulley alignment HERE.

Also, my experiment using the 4 studs to support the engine worked fine. Photos of that for reference too. Notice I cleaned the old gaskets from the front of the engine support by removing one stud at a time to get the pump mating surfaces scrupulously clean. I used my Permatex high-Tack Adhesive on the pump mating surface gaskets.

Note that I did it this way(with the 4 studs) for 2 reasons. One, I had to leave the engine supported overnight and felt it was dangerous to leave a floor jack and wood block supporting it un-monitored, and the other being that the rear gaskets from the engine mount plate to the block were still fresh and hardly moved. I don't recommend this method for a older pump and mount condition as the rear gaskets may be unusable as it is. Actually a third reason.....I didn't want to cause more work for myself as I was frustrated enough with that "other" pump.

And the last photos are of how I got all 5 blades of the engine fan aligned using my hydraulic press. it's not a good idea to straighten blades when the fan is mounted on the car by just pushing or pulling as it puts quite a strain on the bearings of both the clutch and the pump. While I had that off I fixed 4 of the 5 blades as only one was even. Bottom edge to flat surface was measured to be 7/8" so I aligned all 5 to that spec. I noticed several were a tad off with the engine running and it looked odd, so I had to fix that fan while it was off.

Rich

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Thanks for looking great photos

Bob

[Mike E.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich,
I am too used to looking at 62's, apparently. I'll defer to the manual. Stay with the slotted screws.
Mike

[Richard M.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Rich,
I am too used to looking at 62's, apparently. I'll defer to the manual. Stay with the slotted screws.
Mike

Thanks Mike, I thought you were on the '62 think tank. I left the slotted ones in there and finished the pump install yesterday.

You wouldn't happen to have a leak free 609 water pump core lying around there from one of your old '62's would you? I have a nice GM over-the-counter 61/62 trunk mat that we can think about too.

Rich

[Bob W.]

Re: 3782609 Water Pump - Reproduction Raw Cast Iron Defect - NOISE & LEAK

Richard Thanks for the ebay link order order one today.

Thanks again Bob