63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

[Tracy C.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Joe L.,

Get you a 63 or 64 and go get it judged! You'll be talking a different tune after that experience!
And I speak from experience and a lot of it!

JR

JR, I'm with Joe L on this one. If the JG says it is OK and a judge takes a deduct anyway, the owner can appeal to the Team Leader or Chapter Judging Chairman to remove the deduct. If a judge has an issue with the JG content, he needs to take it up with the National Team Leader not the owner who in good faith restored his car per the manual.

tc

[Joe R.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

JR, I'm with Joe L on this one. If the JG says it is OK and a judge takes a deduct anyway, the owner can appeal to the Team Leader or Chapter Judging Chairman to remove the deduct. If a judge has an issue with the JG content, he needs to take it up with the National Team Leader not the owner who in good faith restored his car per the manual.

tc

Tracy,

You can be with whoever you want but a water pump that was not available in 63 will not be the one found on a 63 originally. Lets not be fooled by the judging manual as we already know of many errors that have not be corrected for years. The 609 water pump is the pump that will get the points correctly and the others are maybe's and what'if's.

For what it's worth I believe someone should not be allowed to judge unless they have restored a Corvette in the year they are judging. Buying one does not count. Restoring one does!

JR

[Joe L.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Tracy,

You can be with whoever you want but a water pump that was not available in 63 will not be the one found on a 63 originally. Lets not be fooled by the judging manual as we already know of many errors that have not be corrected for years. The 609 water pump is the pump that will get the points correctly and the others are maybe's and what'if's.

For what it's worth I believe someone should not be allowed to judge unless they have restored a Corvette in the year they are judging. Buying one does not count. Restoring one does!

JR

JR------

It's not an issue of what's correct or not correct. It's an issue of what the judging guide says is correct. I don't think that judges have the authority to "over-rule" what's stated explicitly in the judging guide. If something is not stated explicitly in the judging guide, then I suppose judges are free to make a judgement call based on their own knowledge and experience. I don't necessarily agree with that sort of thing because it creates "inconsistencies" in the whole system. But, if something is explicitly stated in the judging guide, correct or not, judges should be bound by it.

[Michael G.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

There ought to be a special prize given to guys who managed to get a 63 through any level of flight award. A bronzed 609 water pump or a gold plated early 63 fuel door would be nice...🙈

Come to think of it, just an unplated 609 would do

[Michael G.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

We could call it the "unicorn" award, as it's easier to find an extant unicorn than a real 63 dipstick...

[Joe R.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

JR------

It's not an issue of what's correct or not correct. It's an issue of what the judging guide says is correct. I don't think that judges have the authority to "over-rule" what's stated explicitly in the judging guide. If something is not stated explicitly in the judging guide, then I suppose judges are free to make a judgement call based on their own knowledge and experience. I don't necessarily agree with that sort of thing because it creates "inconsistencies" in the whole system. But, if something is explicitly stated in the judging guide, correct or not, judges should be bound by it.

Joe L.

I totally agree with you that the owner should be given the credit if the judging manual is wrong. Also, I would suggest the National Judging Chairman appoint a group of knowledgeable individuals that have restored 63 and 64 Corvettes to review the judging manuals.

JR

[John D.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Jason, Almost feel sorry for you as my pals here are like old ladies.

My turn for a story: My 63 FI car had three water pumps on it. First a poc replacement. Then a 326. Then I found out that all '63's has a 609 pump so I went out and got one of those and had it rebuild.
Use a judging manual as a guide but not as a bible for restoring your car. Doesn't matter what year Corvette you are working on.
That's not me saying that. That's a quote from well know old time NCRS judges. They told me this when my "63 was being restored.
One doesn't even have to check out numbers on a water pump when judging a 63 you know. Just look at the top boss for the by-pass fitting.
The '609 configuration is all on it's own.
Back to work as still have a job.

[Bob J.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Jason, Almost feel sorry for you as my pals here are like old ladies.

My turn for a story: My 63 FI car had three water pumps on it. First a poc replacement. Then a 326. Then I found out that all '63's has a 609 pump so I went out and got one of those and had it rebuild.

JD, very nice story. I guess some people take longer to learn their lesson.
Guys using the DB have an advantage of hearing what is thought to be original from multiple people.
This is more reliable than relying on what one person (63-64 TL) thinks is original.
Bob Jorjorian

[Joe L.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Jason, Almost feel sorry for you as my pals here are like old ladies.

My turn for a story: My 63 FI car had three water pumps on it. First a poc replacement. Then a 326. Then I found out that all '63's has a 609 pump so I went out and got one of those and had it rebuild.
Use a judging manual as a guide but not as a bible for restoring your car. Doesn't matter what year Corvette you are working on.
That's not me saying that. That's a quote from well know old time NCRS judges. They told me this when my "63 was being restored.
One doesn't even have to check out numbers on a water pump when judging a 63 you know. Just look at the top boss for the by-pass fitting.
The '609 configuration is all on it's own.
Back to work as still have a job.

John-----


Yes, that feature is the primary difference between the 3782609 and the 3839175/3859326. Were it not for the perceived, at least, need for the change in the later pumps I expect the3782609 pump would have soldiered on for many years just like its non-external bypass cousin, the 3782608

[Edward J.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Joe, I am wondering were the details of the 609/326 published in the GM parts catalogs? or was this AIM detail?

[Tracy C.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Tracy,

You can be with whoever you want but a water pump that was not available in 63 will not be the one found on a 63 originally. Lets not be fooled by the judging manual as we already know of many errors that have not be corrected for years. The 609 water pump is the pump that will get the points correctly and the others are maybe's and what'if's.

For what it's worth I believe someone should not be allowed to judge unless they have restored a Corvette in the year they are judging. Buying one does not count. Restoring one does!

JR

I think you misunderstood me JR. I didn't say a 326 was correct. If you've read my previous post in this thread, you already know my position on this. My point was to say if the judging manual is wrong, a judge is bound to accept what is in it when judging and deducting for the components of a car.

Suggest you take your ideas to the 63/4 team leader and see if you can get this fixed....

good luck with that..many have tried and failed.
tc

[Joe L.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Joe, I am wondering were the details of the 609/326 published in the GM parts catalogs? or was this AIM detail?

Edward------

The differences or details were not covered in either the P&A Catalog or the AIM.

[John D.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Thanks Joe, I have to confess I know nothing about a 175 pump. Never saw one around here. Will have to watch for a pic of one to see the configuration of the top of it. John

[Joe L.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Thanks Joe, I have to confess I know nothing about a 175 pump. Never saw one around here. Will have to watch for a pic of one to see the configuration of the top of it. John

John------


Depending upon when it was manufactured, the GM #3839175 has an upper bypass boss similar to either the 3782609 and the 3859326. Early versions have a boss configuration virtually the same as the 3782609 and have a 1/2" NPT pipe fitting. Later manufactured versions have an upper boss with the relief seen on all GM #3859326 castings. Some of these have 1/2" NPT fittings and some, primarily later examples, have the 3/4" NPT fitting. The 3839175 and 3859326 castings were used for SERVICE pumps for all 1955-68 small blocks + 69-70 Corvette small blocks for MANY years-----well into the 1990's.

[Jason S.]

Re: 63E Water Pump - 3782609 vs 3859326

Well.........after everybody's warnings, I was afraid to use a 609 repro pump. I found a "real deal" rebuilt 609 at a Corvette vendor near my house for the bargain price of $350 as opposed to the $250 repro.
I still can't believe I paid that much for what is really equivalent (functionally) to a $70 fuel pump.....but it's better than the $500 another well known 609 pump rebuilder wants..........
Since I can't see it's innards, I really don't know whether it's got a good quality impeller or not......but I suppose the money "saved" by not spending the $500 could send the pump off to Flowkooler if I ever have issues.........
BTW......there is alot of sarcasm in my voice as I write this - not sure if it's coming out in writing .