61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

[Mike T.]

Hello All - I've been working on adding an aftermarket power window setup to my 61 Corvette from Auto City. Regulators and harness and conduit all in place and have been working...and working...and working on getting the door windows to match up fairly well with the hardtop as well as the door post. The door post to windshield post fit is good and uniform. One side does have the large aluminum washers at the bottom in order to tilt the door post forward a bit. For the most part, got the window inclination to match up to the door post and front leading edge of the hardtop close. The problem I'm finding is that when all the way 'up', both windows are not even with the hardtop horizontal weatherstrip. I understand that fiberglas can flex and I'm not expecting a perfect airtight fit but the drivers window is quite a bit off. After reading numerous threads on the subject from guys here and on the CF, I do realize the 'curved track' is effectively the one and only adjustment to make that would let the window dive forward into the door post when it reaches the top and have used their suggestions to slot the inner door skin so that the curved track forces the window forward but after all that, I'm quite a bit off. Any comments would be welcomed.
Thanks.

[Edward J.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike, I am not a C1 guy but, does the rear deck panel have provisions on the hinge to slide forward to maybe move forward or aft.? or adjustments in the latching to move the hard top? Once the windows adjustments have failed what else do you have? Mike maybe take a pic of the problem area and post, sometimes this helps visualize the problem.

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Ed - Unfortunately, moving the rear deck forward would not do the trick in this case, plus it would open a can of worms for everything else connected to the rear deck lid. It's probably a bit hard to picture the issues I'm having with the door windows of my 61. Unlike a midyear (I've got two Coupes), the window glass doesn't rise straight up. There is a bit of an 'arc' to it's movement. Not an overly exaggerated arc but there is a sweep to the movement of the glass, especially when you reach the top. The best way to describe what I'm finding on the drivers door window is to say the window 'top' is not reaching 12-o'clock but deadheads at around 1-o'clock. Sounds confusing, no doubt, but I'm unable to get the window to shift forward enough to make it match all the contact surfaces it meets.

[Richard M.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike, Pictures would help. Some showing it fully raised and the gaps visible, and a few others of the reveal area and the 2 window stops. THose can be from the outside through the glass to view the stops.

I have not used any aftermarket PW systems but the geometry of the mechanism shouldn't be affected by that so I would think it's something else. That is of course unless the geomtry of the PW regulator arms are not designed properly.

You don't mention if you adjusted the 2 window stops or not. If the top of the glass/frame isn't meeting the HT horizontal evenly, those 2 stops may be hitting too early. Did you play with those? Another caveat is that even those 2 stops can run out of adjustment. Stock variations in the glass frame & lower sash and door itself can add up to a cumulative error.

I would try the "process of elimination" method in this case.......

Remove the inner reveal to expose the 2 window stops. Remove the 2 stops(plate and screw) completely by removing the 2 screws on each plate and tilt the plate and stop-screw while pulling the inner skin a tad. This make them easier to remove.

Then raise the window(ultra slowly) to see if it moves further up and more evenly to the HT horizontal.

Based on the result, it may then have identified the cause(...i.e the stop(s)), or could put you into a different approach to diagnose the problem. If it appears the 2 stops are the culprits, even if at their maximum "up" adjustment, you may have to look at some possible modifications.

The stops have rubber buttons on them. The rubber is only about 1/8" to 3/16" thick on the metal "screw head". They hit the 2 "tabs" built into the lower sash frames and there is no adjustment. One tab is bent into the frame, the other is a small "L" bracket welded to the sash. You can see them in the sash frames below. BTW, this is also a problem area as if the sash moves up and beyond those 2 stops, the window frame will hang up on them when trying to lower the window. If this should happen during troubleshooting or even normal operation, you can sometimes free the sash by pulling the inner door skin inward while lowering the window.

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If the stops do not appear to be the issue, then I would suggest you eliminate the other major player......

Remove the regulator from the equation. But you can do this by simply removing the lower straight horizontal channel from the sash(2 small Phillips screws each side(as can be seen in above pics). Since you have a PW motor, you'll have to bump it up and down a tad to get at each side to remove the screws of the channel.

When removed, bump the PW motor down and out of the way. Then manually raise the glass from inside the access holes to see if the window raises properly along the front and rear channels and up into the HT horizontal. You can do this with door open to visualize how far up it goes. But you may have to close the door and try it from inside the car. I'd remove the seats for easier access.

Again, I have no background with those PW systems, but I have much with the glass mechanism geometry. I think eliminating sections of the geometry may help diagnose the fault.

Rich

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Hi Rich - Just took a few pics that will show how far 'off' I am. The passenger side window is the better of the two but still not right. To answer your question about the stops, I left them out when I was initially working on getting the adjustments made so they were a non-factor for limiting the rise I was seeing in the windows. Now, to fill in some of the blanks, my old (and I believe) original window frame assemblies were not in good shape when I started this project, one roller had disintegrated and someone had 'brazed' the rear lower bracket arm to the actual window sash. Add to this that the window glass had some bubbling and the old frames had quite a few dings and scrapes so I ordered up complete framed window assemblies, again from Auto City. The new assemblies look good but those turned-out ledges on the lower sash where the window stop is supposed to make contact are very skimpy on the Auto City frames. That means the 'target' area that the window stop is supposed to hit is noticeably smaller than the stockers. One other note, that spot-welded angle I see on your window sashes is not present on my old 61 assemblies and no evidence they ever had that feature. My originals had a more turned out 'ledge' from the sash and it's only on the inboard side of the sash while the aftermarket Auto City has a much less pronounced 'lip' but there's a lip on both sides of the glass...obviously the outboard side is useless and doesn't contact anything. On the subject of stops, when I first noticed the misalignment of the glass to the hardtop sealing surfaces, I tried (unsuccessfully) to use the stops to 'cant' the glass, hoping that if the front window stop made contact first, that would then 'stop' the rise of the front part of the window and let the rear continue to rise, leveling it off. No dice. Also, regarding the stops, I do realize the rear-most window stop can't be adjusted to far in towards the glass because the upper part of the window frame will contact it on it's way down.
This first pic is of the passenger side window and it's not too bad but the top-forward corner is low compared to the rear upper corner.

This is the drivers window and the worst offender. Even with that curved track upper screw hole slotted and the track moved as far forward as possible, when the window is all the way up (actually a bit higher than it should be at the front top corner), that top-forward corner of the window frame is still not fully engaged/buried into the door post channel.

And lastly, this is a closeup of the other resultant mismatch on that drivers window. Since the window doesn't come up and forward as much as it should, there's one large gap at the rear lower corner.

Geometry was never my long suit but I've tried to figure out what the problem is and one thing that did come to mind was the regulator needing to be moved 'downward' and somewhat rearward to allow the long regulator arm to swing around and forward so I did open up the attachment holes on the inner skin but no real progress there either.

[Richard M.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike, Now seeing the problem in photos is a big help, and I'll start by saying Edward may have the right idea.....The HT fit. I'll explain.....

Making reproduction parts fit properly is a common occurrence and I think that is contributing to the cumulative effect of errors here. But it may take some creative work to get it better.

I too have used the reproduction side glass assemblies and run into similar issues with fit and alignment. This on a 1960 below. However this was a soft top only car(which I installed also), but my issue was also the fit at the forward top corners. There were gaps there at the top. Similar to your issue on both sides(not the rear). After much effort I got them as close as possible to the upper forward soft top w/strip, but ran out of adjustment.
PB170001.jpgPB170002.jpgPB170003.jpgPB170004.jpg

The problem was finally attributed to the reproduction soft top header weatherstrip which is very hard and thicker than originals. After some shaving and adjusting of the latches, I got the header down a bit more and it helped. After time the rubber relaxed and compressed and after more latch adjustments it came down tighter.
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I also had a 1960 with a Hardtop and a Soft top. The HT header w/strip is also very thick and harder than originals. This causes similar problems with gaps in the front top corners. On the list I have will also require some shaving and adjusting of the header w/strip to help bring the entire header down to the windshield header more.
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The soft top on the same car had similar symptoms with top forward sideglass fit. Same scenario. Header w/strip. More time and compression will help this also. There is a slight gap which will not adjust any more, so the header compression will help it down more as time goes on. Here is the gap before the top went on. It is common to have a small gap there, but not excessive.
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What I'm getting at here is your Hardtop fit. Don't rule that out. It may be a idea to look carefully at the header w/strip thickness and latch pull adjustment to get it down a bit more. I would touch the decklid area as there really isn't much you can do there, except if it is too far back on its hinges it may need to come forward a bit. This by moving the lid forward a bit via the hinge bolts. Just keep it in mind for now.

In your case, all of your parts are not original and are likely adding more errors. IMO your Pass side is pretty darn good the way it is. The Driver side is clearly a problem. I would again rule out/remove some pieces of the mechanism to get it moved up at the rear further as this may give you the clue. It's also possible that the Auto City regulator is "not to spec", and may need some modifications to get that rear to come up higher. Something is really strange on that side.

Rich

[Edward J.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike, is the glass seated all the way in the sashes? it would seem the rear drivers needs some more adjustment do you think the window stop holes can be elongated or removed at least to see if this helps? Or does the window regulator just run out of height in general.

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Ed - Yep, the Auto City framed door windows are fully seated down into the rubber liner and sash. Sure wish it was something as easy to fix as the glass not fully seated into the frame but unfortunately, it's not.
Rich - I think your observation is right on the money, it's a combination of numerous variances that's causing the misalignment, not just one particular 'smoking gun'. When I bought the 61 from a guy in Austin Texas, he had sunk quite a bit of money on the aesthetics of the car and the hardtop looked outstanding after it was redone, supposedly by The Hardtop Shop (Glassworks, I believe). I have noticed that the header weatherstripping as well as the w-strips above the door glass are extremely hard and not compliant at all. In fact, after getting the door post meeting up fairly well with the windshield and then the glass angle fairly aligned with the post, I dropped on the hardtop (which had been laying up against the wall for at least a half year) and to get the glass close to fitting the same angle as the hardtop sides, I had to kinda 'flex' the hardtop sides inboard while snugging down the side attachment bolts. I just went out and took a couple pics that will help show how far off the two windows are. Notice the passenger side window top is below the top of the door post and at the same time, the front vertical glass frame is fully embedded into the post channel. Then look at the drivers side and even after adjusting the stops to let it go futher up than the passenger side adjustment, nearly even with the top of the door post, the front vertical glass frame isn't yet buried into the post channel. That front frame section it 'out' at the top and mostly 'in at the bottom.

[Richard M.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike,

As mentioned, I'd disconnect the PW regulator and test the frame manually to check ease of travel into the front channel and rear positioning.

When I got the reproduction sideglass/frame assemblies for that '60, I checked frame width with a dial caliper and they matched my original '59 frames exactly, so I think those may be fine but you may want to check each of yours for same widths.

Rich

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Hi Rich - Actually, I already did that and there was no real improvement in the window positioning. Odd that the passenger side regulator would bolt in to the forward holes of the door skin, the ones for the factory 'electric windows' and it was pretty close overall. Then did the same with the drivers door, which shows no sign of any damage that might have thrown off the geometry, and the window glass fits so poorly. After 'hours' of tweaking the curved track by not only slotting the upper but also the lower attachment point hole, that made no difference. Went back to double checking the door post and thinking maybe if it moved another 1/16th inch or so further forward...yeah, that might help. I did read the ST-12 and it states the vertical gap between the door post and windshield frame should be about a 16th, no more and mine is larger but even after shifting it slightly forward it made no difference and after seeing pics of the 'gaps' on most solid axle Corvettes, mine aren't that far off. I did disconnect the 4 Phillips head screws that hold the regulator and actually slotted those holes moving the whole regulator forward and then slightly downward by about 1/8-3/16 inch but no help there either. I did find that any additional attempt to move the regulator lower than the original position was out of the question because the Auto City PW motor is now contacting the fiberglas structure surrounding the lower hinge bolts.
So, I might try a little more adjusting but in the end, it looks like I'm stuck with what's there. I will try to get a neighbor over to hoist the hardtop back off and then see how well the windows fit the complete framed Coffman Soft top I bought back in 2009. Maybe I'll get lucky and it will fit better. Yes, my fingers are (still) crossed. Thanks to all for the help.

[Richard M.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Hi Rich - Actually, I already did that and there was no real improvement in the window positioning..........

So if you took the regulator out of the equation then you can find the problem with more diagnosis. A few more things to check......

I just thought of this. However it may not be a issue in your case as you said you took the regulator out, but was the roller for the curved track still there? Those curved tracks are not identical. There is a left and a right. There is no part number on them but one is 3723501(L), and 3723502(R). It is possible to install them reversed and upside down. This can cause a bind in the mechanism.

I am not sure if I have the correct curved track in the correct side in the photos below, I think I did. I usually scribe them before cleaning and media blasting so I can discern them later.

Right glass
P5190021.jpg

Left glass
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If the above are okay, then the only other thing I can think of as to why that DS won't move up and into the channel properly is this......

Built into the front main brace for the door post is a channel with a curved top end for the front roller of the sash. This curve tilts the window rearward when lowing the window. The roller faces outward when installed. The curved track is welded to the door post reinforcement. It is not adjustable, but the entire reinforcement is adjustable, to a small degree, within it's mounting arrangement.

It gets attached via a bolt/nutplate in it to the special vertical bracket built into/riveted within the door frame which is slotted for the door post reinforcement adjustment. I recall you worked in this area to get your door posts setup. I'm thinking you may have to go back in there and "cheat" the reinforcement brace to allow the integrated curved track to move in a better position. I often have to grind the slots in the door brackets to allow more movement of this reinforcement piece to improve door post to windshield post alignment, particularly after a windshield restoration off and on the cars.

P5190023.jpgP5190024.jpg

Something is wrong, you're getting closer. Keep at it.

Rich

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Rich - I think you're onto something here...if I'm understanding you correctly. Since the riveted vertical door bracket is firm/fixed, there is no adjustment to be had other than the horizontal slot at the bottom to help tilt the cast door post but it sounds like you're suggesting opening up the 'upper' holes for those Phillips screws that attach the stamped lower brace that also has the forward curved track so that it would move independently 'forward' of the post in an attempt to move the whole framed glass forward? I think this is worth a shot because after reading about slotting the small center mounted curved track mounting holes in an effort to get the window shifter more forward, I found that the track had very little movement fore-aft and knew it was because the forward channel was secured to the cast door post and if one moved the other would have to move. I discounted the idea because I was thinking once that forward brace/channel was screwed to the door post, that was it.
I'm going to give that a try and see what happens. When you have 'slotted' or opened up those upper holes on the forward channel, do you happen to remember the rough dimension? Looking at the pic you posted above, are those already opened up? It's only been a few weeks since I put them into my doors and can't recall how big the holes were originally.

[Dan B.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

I faced a similar problem after adding the hardtop to my car (orig soft top only car). Went crazy with my right window (big gap at the bottom rear). I approached the problem with the same thought pattern as Rich suggests by eliminating one item at a time to see why the window would not properly align. Took everything out of the door and FINALLY found the problem was in the front track. The curved track was incorrectly spot welded by GM in the WRONG position. With the soft top only, the factory was able to adjust the top to compensate, and out the door it went. Years later, when I added the hard top, the original problem revealed itself.

This is a photo of the right (passenger) track BEFORE I broke the incorrect welds and moved it to where the pencil line is (correct position. Notice how far forward the top of the track is sticking out. This fixed my problem. It would be worth a look for you at this point if you are out of other ideas like I was to inspect it. Roofline also lined up, but stops were not yet adjusted in this photo. Dan

[Mike T.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Dan - So, if that pic on the left is the 'before pic of the passenger side track, then you're saying you broke the spotwelds and actually moved that track 'rearward' from where it is in that pic? Rich's pics of his front vertical track and my vertical track look about the same as your 'before' pic where the curved track seems to be centered on the (mostly) flat tab it's spotwelded to with a small portion of the track sticking out to the front. For you to feel the passenger side track was not in the right position, I'm guessing it was noticeably different from your drivers side track? I did work on the drivers door window yesterday and it's better than it was and it amounted to a number of very small adjustments starting with (a) moving the front door post forward a bit more, like around 1/16th of an inch, and (b) loosening the door post to door attachments and leaning the top 'back' a little, again less than 1/16th of an inch and it's pretty close now. Still not perfect but acceptable.
Rich - I did try loosening the two Phillips screws and shifting the track more forward on the door post but there was no change seen in the fit of the door glass to the post.

While looking at everything inside the door, I saw something that makes me think that the Auto City regulator might be a bit off. Check out the pic looking in on the lower rubber stop. My new regulator doesn't even contact the rubber at all. Instead, the regulator arm contacts the metal support for that rubber pad, inboard of the pad location.

[Dan B.]

Re: 61 Corvette - Trouble with Final Door Window Adjustment

Mike, I did this some time ago, and I got it backwards (sorry for the confusion). but I can tell you for sure that the above picture of the track clearly showed that the top of the curved portion of the track was welded in the wrong spot. The pencil line to the left WAS where it was originally welded when I found it. Sorry, I had forgotten this was actually an AFTER photo. By removing everything else from the door and finding this was the only thing preventing me from moving the window where it needed to go. I later confirmed this by examining photos of other identical original pieces to get to this. Good Luck.