327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

[Kenneth B.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Where do I go to get info on my R code 63 1/2 Galaxy 500 XL conv? thanks

[Michael J.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Where do I go to get info on my R code 63 1/2 Galaxy 500 XL conv? thanks

As I mentioned, Lois only was able to get Fords from 1967 on. She did squirrel away many earlier T-Bird invoices, when she was helping T-Bird owners before she asked to do all the cars starting in 1967. So I don't know of any source to get the Ford records for your R code '63 1/2. But luckily, unlike GM, Ford did put much info about how a car was originally equipped in the VIN and on the door tag. You are lucky to have an R code, one of my favorites of the time, that 427 was a great engine too. And of course, like many of us before, if you want more info Bill Gould is a great place to go, he has helped me with Fords before too.

[Robert M.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307


Thank you Roy. Your point is spot on, but there are folks here that think eveyone but them don't have a clue and only their 67 L71 is real. I have never been duped and have followed your advice. All my documentation has been validated as original GM. Also a person that knows what they are looking at would never be fooled by a small block car that magically has become a big block.

[Roy S.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

I’m going to hi-jack the thread here and change the subject. My opinion regarding Original Motors and how we got to the level of deceit that exists today: We all should know if we just use common sense regarding these cars that many original motors were destroyed, it’s inevitable, the venerable small block Chevrolet engine was a task master and by the time of the horsepower race when we first started seeing more than one horse per cubic inch it was almost indestructible, unless you were playing in the at that time unheard of rpm ranges of 6500 plus, unfortunately even there a small block can be destroyed. As the horsepower race started mushrooming along came the big block engines, they were not as forgiving as the small block, rotating mass (force) is exponential with respect to weight so the big block, does not wrap a rod around the crank and dent the oil pan at 3500 rpm like a small block does, it knocks a whole in the side of the block. Because a small block crank and rod set is so much lighter than a big block crank and rod set, the big block motors broke if challenged. Most people never threw a car away because something happened to a motor they just replaced the motor, these cars were drivers back then as mentioned in numerous other threads.

The entire counterfeiting fiasco, bear with me - and again it’s just my opinion, but I consider it an educated opinion because I was there, I saw it explode. Imagine if you will two organizations that judge Corvettes, both heading down similar paths, both sharing knowledge of a quite a few individuals who for the most part all know each other and all have a like passion. These two organizations come to the same threshold at virtually and identical time point in their existence. They are very similar with but a few exceptions, they both judge against a similar standard – as it left the factory. One the privately owned organization creates a set of penalty boxes that limits the award you can receive in their organization to their second tier at best. The other the hobbyist group belonging to its members does not create those boxes, they structures their judging such that if you do not have the original engine you could lose as few as 2% of the total score or as much as 7.7% of the total score depending on the correctness of your engine. As a result if I take my non original motor to the box guys I can’t get the top award, if I take it to the hobbyist I can get the top award. Guess what happened – a cottage industry of counterfeiting engine pads to resemble original was born. In fact in 1992 the privately owned organization limited 66% of the big block cars in the 65/66/67 groupings to their second tier level. So the cottage industry needed to improve owners would not accept this second level award it cast a pall on their masterpiece. With the cottage industry getting better and better, it became harder and harder to detect the counterfeit. Meanwhile the hobbyist group never changed their philosophy they just kept judging the cars recognizing things happened to these cars. The privately owned group started ignoring their box to keep profits up and cars coming back, then in 2013 or so the knowledgeable judges said this is not right to have a box and ignore it so they used it the result the rules of the organization were changed.

My point here is simple; the cottage industry was created and thrived because one organization created a box limiting the award, the only way you could be the best was to fool the judges into thinking they did not need to check the box. The result of that philosophy forever impacted the collector car world. NCRS never said throw your car away because you do not have the original engine, there are numerous cars with Duntov Awards that do not have the original engine, and those cars lost points on their engines appropriately. Unfortunately there are numerous cars that have been through the private organization judging that also have their highest award because they simply elected to keep the box but basically ignore it until that fateful event in 2013.

After years of trying to replicate engine pads, the unscrupulous had gotten pretty good at it, so good that building big block cars out of small blocks was not an issue even in the early 90’s it was pretty common.

I contend today and have contended it for years that the term “matching numbers” was created by an individual wanting to deceive you or I, into thinking we were getting something we were not. The unfortunate thing about the term because it has never truly been defined it means different things to different organizations, and as a result we are all at risk when we see it used.

One final comment here just to level the field, don’t assume that stamping engines is something solely related to the Corvette hobby. I was offered and accepted a tour through one of these facilities that was a prominent supplier, there were more Mopar and Pontiac motors in that shop in 1990 than there were Chevrolet.

[Mark D.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Just go to the internet and buy a car advertised as 'original.'

Remember, you can't put anything on the internet that isn't true.

Kramden

[Mike M.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

astute observations and well put roy-boy. mike

[Michael J.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

As an owner of a '67 L71 (NCRS tank sticker validated by Roy in 2012) with a "restoration" (date code correct NOM) engine where the "numbers match", I am thinking about just taking a grinding wheel to the engine pad and erase the VIN stamp. I hate to do that, it will look bad, but I don't want there to be confusion after I sell it. I find even thinking about that sad, but created by this situation.

[Philip A.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

A wise old man once told me, introduce money into a fun activity and it will be ruined. I have not seen one example of when this has not been true. The fact that hobbyists will pay a premium for an original engine/ stamp vehicle drives the deceit / corruption. Unfortunately, the different organizations are used as the validators of originality.

Mike
there are several ways to keep the hobby honest about your car. You can advertise it on the Internet ( exists for ever) very clearly disclosing it is a restoration engine, you can also put it in the different registries clearly disclosing this.

[Michael W.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

As an owner of a '67 L71 (NCRS tank sticker validated by Roy in 2012) with a "restoration" (date code correct NOM) engine where the "numbers match", I am thinking about just taking a grinding wheel to the engine pad and erase the VIN stamp. I hate to do that, it will look bad, but I don't want there to be confusion after I sell it. I find even thinking about that sad, but created by this situation.

Much simpler- add the word 'restamp' or similar in intent to the pad in a place that does not obscure the engine code or VIN derivative. This takes the high road morally and legally and will not affect judging points.

[Edward M.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

This is not an issue that is going to go away, and we (the universal we) need to find a way to deal with it. I don't have a solution, but perhaps tracking cars by VIN may be a start.

There was a very nice black on red 57 283hp FI 4 speed car that sold a couple of years ago. That same VIN is listed in Mike Hunt's data from years previously as a copper on beige 250hp FI powerglide car.

I had an interesting idea recently. Going through my old issues of Vette Vues magazine and recording the details every car that has a VIN listed. Sort of creating a historical database.

Might be interesting to see what some cars have "become".

[Mike M.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

your theory assumes the data in vette vues etc is genuine. but i'd guess all that info from years ago is pretty close to genuine. regards, mike

[Edward M.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

Mike;

The info would be taken at face value, and "assumed" to be correct, but no guarantees of that. I was thinking that it might be more interesting to track the history / transfer of cars over time.

This would clearly be a time consuming process. Maybe I'll wait until I retire.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

As I mentioned, Lois only was able to get Fords from 1967 on. She did squirrel away many earlier T-Bird invoices, when she was helping T-Bird owners before she asked to do all the cars starting in 1967. So I don't know of any source to get the Ford records for your R code '63 1/2. But luckily, unlike GM, Ford did put much info about how a car was originally equipped in the VIN and on the door tag. You are lucky to have an R code, one of my favorites of the time, that 427 was a great engine too. And of course, like many of us before, if you want more info Bill Gould is a great place to go, he has helped me with Fords before too.

THANKS for the info. I do have a lot of original owner info/ paperwork but not much dealer stuff. My first new car was a 63 1/2 425 HP Galaxy 500 XL fastback. I will try to contact him do you have a # or email?

[Kenneth B.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

GREAT POST ROY As well put & to the point as one can get. As I have said before For those that get it No explanation is needed & for those that don't none is possible. I think most of us that were their in the day understand what most C-1/C-2 Corvettes looked like & they weren't pretty cost 1500/2000$ now all Corvettes are like new with all original/repo parts including the cylinder block

[Roy S.]

Re: 327 & 427 for Same Car 194377S117307

THANKS for the info. I do have a lot of original owner info/ paperwork but not much dealer stuff. My first new car was a 63 1/2 425 HP Galaxy 500 XL fastback. I will try to contact him do you have a # or email?

Bill Gould http://www.autoancestry.com/