Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

[Dale C.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

I don't know if the C2's are the same as the C3, but my frame stamp on the left rear is visible when the wheel is off and a light is positioned from the back side by gas tank. Can see enough to confirm my numbers ending in 417. Shows better in real life. I guess tis could be faked also.
Dale

[Joe L.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

I don't know if the C2's are the same as the C3, but my frame stamp on the left rear is visible when the wheel is off and a light is positioned from the back side by gas tank. Can see enough to confirm my numbers ending in 417. Shows better in real life. I guess tis could be faked also.
Dale

Dale------


Virtually impossible to fake this stamping unless the body is removed from the frame. VERY FEW thieves are going to go this far. For one thing, they know they don't have to since these numbers are rarely checked.

[John D.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Would it make sense for the owner to use his documentation to obtain a reproduction VIN plate. ? I wouldn't bring the car anywhere near any type DMV or police scrutiny there's almost nothing to gain and everything to lose.

[Joe L.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Would it make sense for the owner to use his documentation to obtain a reproduction VIN plate. ? I wouldn't bring the car anywhere near any type DMV or police scrutiny there's almost nothing to gain and everything to lose.

John------

To be honest, that was my first thought but I hesitated to suggest it given the NCRS attitude toward reproduction VIN tags. However, if it were me and, after I had verified that the frame VIN matched the VIN on the title, that's exactly what I would do.

[Michael W.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Would it make sense for the owner to use his documentation to obtain a reproduction VIN plate. ? I wouldn't bring the car anywhere near any type DMV or police scrutiny there's almost nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I think he'd go from bad to worse. A repro VIN tag would be picked up during judging no differently than a repro trim tag and with no government issued paperwork to accompany it, the car would be branded and banned from judging.

I'd leave it as-is.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

IT seems a simple way to verify it one way or another. Check the frame #'S & if they match the paperwork & the home made SN are good to go. If they don't then there is a BIG problem.

[Michael W.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

IT seems a simple way to verify it one way or another. Check the frame #'S & if they match the paperwork & the home made SN are good to go. If they don't then there is a BIG problem.

Lots of Corvettes have had frame replacements over the years due to rot or accidents. It's not illegal to re use a frame from another car.

[Gary C.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Some States have very unusual laws on the books for replacement parts. Missouri as an example, if they haven't changed the Missouri State law in the last couple of years requires every major component to be stamped by a State Trooper with the cars VIN.

Gary
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[Joe L.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

I think he'd go from bad to worse. A repro VIN tag would be picked up during judging no differently than a repro trim tag and with no government issued paperwork to accompany it, the car would be branded and banned from judging.

I'd leave it as-is.

Mike-------


The same paperwork that authorizes the placement of the current VIN tag would also, effectively, authorize the placement of the reproduction VIN tag. That's the "beauty" of the certificate that authorizes the affixation of a non-original VIN tag with a certain VIN number. Who could possibly say that any non-original VIN tag (e.g. a reproduction) with that VIN number found on the car is not the one enplaced by George Brown? There is nothing on the certificate that in any way connects it to the actual VIN tag now on the car. As a matter of fact, the one on the car now might not be the actual one that George Brown placed on it.

[Michael W.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Mike-------


The same paperwork that authorizes the placement of the current VIN tag would also, effectively, authorize the placement of the reproduction VIN tag. That's the "beauty" of the certificate that authorizes the affixation of a non-original VIN tag with a certain VIN number. Who could possibly say that any non-original VIN tag (e.g. a reproduction) with that VIN number found on the car is not the one enplaced by George Brown? There is nothing on the certificate that in any way connects it to the actual VIN tag now on the car. As a matter of fact, the one on the car now might not be the actual one that George Brown placed on it.

This is all true. I had gotten the idea that the mysterious piece of paper could be dispensed with if a repro VIN tag was attached. Obviously the wrong assumption on my part.

[Joe L.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

Lots of Corvettes have had frame replacements over the years due to rot or accidents. It's not illegal to re use a frame from another car.

Michael------


Yes, that's correct. However, if one uses such a frame, then one needs to obtain a bill of sale for the frame which includes the stamped VIN number on that frame and the seller's name and address. If possible, something showing that the car which donated the frame was legally scrapped would also be highly advisable. That bill of sale needs to be maintained with the permanent legal paperwork of the car (i.e. ownership certificate and registration).

So, what about reproduction frames with no numbers? Same thing applies----a bill of sale showing the seller's name and address as well as the manufacturing source of the frame.

[Joe L.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

By the way, while NCRS may look upon reproduction VIN tags with extreme disdain and disapproval, in this case and with the Massachusetts certificate I would think it would have to be acceptable. At the very least, if the current VIN tag is acceptable with the certificate, then I can't see why it should be any different for a reproduction VIN tag. The Massachusetts certificate basically acknowledges that the VIN tag on the car is not the original VIN tag but if whatever VIN tag is on the car matches the VIN on the certificate, it's OK.

Oh, and another thing: if someone were to take that reproduction VIN tag and place it on any other 1967 Corvette, with the certificate that car would be OK, too. Not just for judging but for legal ownership, too. It's like any reproduction VIN tag with that number on it (including that horrible one on it now)+ the certificate is like a "wild card". It can make any car it's affixed to "legit".

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

IT seems a simple way to verify it one way or another. Check the frame #'S & if they match the paperwork & the home made SN are good to go. If they don't then there is a BIG problem.

OK IF the frame SN matched the paper work would any of you have a problem letting it be judged especially if Mass. did NOT issue state vin tags in the day. I know in IN. & AZ. There has to be a vin # somewhere to get a title/ state vin #

[Gene M.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

The previous owner appears to have complied with the laws that were then in effect in Massachusetts. The outcome seems to be the same as a replacement VIN tag issued by the state. The intention of NCRS is to honor properly documented actions of federal and state governments. I am interested to see if the title also contains a legend. But, on the surface, I see no reason why this VIN tag would preclude the car from being judged by NCRS. Dave

I'm asking from the stand point of judging chairman at a local meet, how does one discern if a Corvette has a legal issued identification tag. I have no idea what they are supposed to look like. Also since titles were not implemented till 1969 in NY, so that venue is not available. Paper work can be "made" so I don't want to do any evaluation based on that. Plus I would have no clue as to the required approvals and what content should be. I would normally look at engine pad stamping, transmission stamp, trim tag, and frame stamp to validate this is the car who's number is on said issued tag. Now, many times the engine and tranny are restamps, nothing here, the frame is replaced due to rust, again nothing. So how is said car connected with said serial number? Knowing the reality of stolen cars and not wanting to have one on our judging field I don't feel comfortable without seeing a normal original GM issue VIN tag.

I don't feel this is a remote situation being we had two previously tag issues at the chapter level. NCRS members outside the chapter are strangers as far as knowing the moral character so we don't know everybody's intentions.

Members with non original tags should have it cleared with national judging chairman prior to chapter registration. Thus avoiding the burden (or possible bad call) placed at chapter level. The issue could still be real at the chapter level with owners ignorant of the fact that a replaced tag resides on their car.

[Jim S.]

Re: Replaced VIN Tag. How would this be handled by NCRS Judging?

The previous owner appears to have complied with the laws that were then in effect in Massachusetts. The outcome seems to be the same as a replacement VIN tag issued by the state. The intention of NCRS is to honor properly documented actions of federal and state governments. I am interested to see if the title also contains a legend. But, on the surface, I see no reason why this VIN tag would preclude the car from being judged by NCRS. Dave

The present owner, in GA, stated there is no legend on the GA title. He titled it in GA 22 years ago by showing the prior NH title. The state (GA) did not physically inspect the car or "tag" before issuing a title.