Who does the best engine restamps?

[Gregory M.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

If someone wants to have a car judged, and the NCRS requires point deduction for the pad then, in effect, they are encouraging restamping.

If stamping and re-broaching (a term I had never seen until this thread) become undetectable than the only cars that are legitmate are those with paper documentation...we have bastardized a lot of cars in the process...a shame...

GM

[Steven C.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Greg L., forgive me, but I have one question: Why do you want to do this?

[John M.]

Re: In Florida, word got around

Kent,

It was never a secret that the block was a re-stamp. It does not matter if you know absolutely that the block was re-stamped, you are not allowed to use this information as a judge! This is called prior knowledge, and has no place in flight judging. The standard has always been, does the item in question "appear" correct. A judge would need to explain what about the pad was inconsistent with the as-built appearance of a pad. As long as Flight judging awards points for a "correct appearing" stamp pad, there will be people who will strive to produce a perfect stamp that will yeild full points. Clearly, to sell such a car as "original numbers matching" is nothing but fraud, but restorers are constantly looking to make ever part of a car as close to original appearance as possible, so it is not suprising that they would put a lot of effort in the pad as well. If you are saying that a stamp pad should be deducted if it is a known restamp, even if it is perfect, then you would have to be willing to accept a deduct on a lacquer repaint, or a new interior, even if they were perfect, since everybody knows they are new!

I will go on record as stating my belief that there is absolutely nothing wrong with re-stamping a correct block for judging. Obviously, representing such a car as original at a sale is fraud, but I am not sure how you divorce the two from each other. The problem is, that people pay a huge premium for "numbers matching", without regard to the rest of the car. The value of a car to me is closley tied to how it did at Filght judging, and not how "original" it is! Of course, Bowtie cars are an entirely different matter.

I have owned several cars over the years that, in my opinion, had the original motor. That being said, I have NEVER represented any car as having the original motor, or anything else original for that matter. Unless you have owned the car since day one, you really don't know for sure! I would much rather sell a car as simply a 99% Top Flight car, and let the car speak for itself through the judging sheets. I have had people try and browbeat me into saying that a particular car had the original drivetrain, but I won't go down that route. If I do not know something for sure, I am not going to represent it as if I did. the best I can do is show the judging sheets that show no deduct for the stamp pad. Does this indicate that the stamp is original to the car? No, not any more than a no deduct for the paint indicate that the paint is original to the car!
As restorers, we build "restored" cars, and by the definition, a car is not "original" if it has been restored, plain and simple.

Regards, John McGraw

[Harmon C.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Steve
Read the first post it is real clear what he wants to do if he can find the right car.
Lyle

[Greg L.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Steve, nothing to forgive

To answer your question...If I end up finding a nice verifyable and legit tri-power car that no longer has the original engine I'll eventualy want to have an engine that at least appears to be the original one in it. If I need to go this route I want to make sure that who ever does it knows what they are doing. Otherwise I could just shave the numbers off and get some stamps from ebay and put my own numbers into the pad...kinda makes as much sense as finding the right paint for my car but then rolling it on with an Home Depot paint roller

Again, as in my first post, the owner will have to PROVE to me that it's a real tri-power car because I won't take any of this "ya to the best of my knoweledge it is a ZL1" crap! Heard lots of stories but I don't really believe may if any of them... Maybe that's why I'm still looking for the right car...

[Greg L.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

GM,

I think the reason that this thread didn't degenerate into another more philosophical debate is because that has been pretty much beat to death on this and other forums with the end result is that everyone agrees to disagree with nothing else being accomplished.

I USED to think like you in that restamping blocks was wrong but the fact is that it is so common today that it really doesn't mean anything any more. "Numbers Matching"...who cares, that phrase means no more than what those two little word mean by themselves. The engine pad used to be way to tell what a car really was but today it is just another piece of the puzzle...I wish it was still that easy but it isn't. The only stamp pad that I trust is my own because I've had it since 1988 and I know it's original.

Like it or not...that's just the way it is these days.

[Gregory M.]

Re: In Florida, word got around

Interesting quagmire created by re-stamping and NCRS judging...so, we acknowledge that people have engines re-stamped for NCRS judging...just my humble opinion, but to the extent that NCRS judging encourages re-stamping I think it should be changed...and to think that a restamp will not at some point be offered as an original motor in the future is unrealistic.

I, for one, did not know the last stingray was a restamp...I hope the person who paid over 600K knew before they bid...

GM

[Gregory M.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

I can almost understand your desire to re-stamp in your case. If you have documentation the car is a legit BB TriPower car the fact that the engine was re-stamped does not render the car a fake.

A shame that GM did not place a digit in the vin for the original engine like Ford and Mopar did...a legit Hemi car is a legit Hemi Car with or without its original engine...obviously worth a little more with the origianl engine but not like the disparity between a SB and BB Corvette. It takes most of the guess work out of it...

GM

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Actually, it is a shame people don't buy these cars based on the quality of the car, rather than some imagined value like a Picasso.

If the car is nicely done, you pay more. If it looks like Bubba put it halfway together, you pay less.

That is how it used to be. People paid what the car was worth, then enjoyed it. Today, they speculate on its growth potential. You could see them debating that in the B-J auction, deciding if the growth would warrant a certain bid or not.

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

the only cars that are legitmate are those with paper documentation...

You obviously have been in the dark. Paper became available long before good restamps.

I would trust these two types the most: the one with all sorts of paper - gas receipts, oil change receipts, service receipts, etc. and the one with no paper but owned a long time.

The first because there seems to be a lot of car owners that saved the window stickers or a dealer sales order, but not a single other piece of paper. That doesn't jive with anyone I know who has ever saved paper on their cars. They either save almost everything or nothing.

The guy that has owned it a long time, because there must be a reason he kept it so long. A short timer is just flipping, and that isn't much different than a used car salesman.

[Kent K.]

John, I agree with you but ...

I never said anything about judging any Corvette with prior knowledge. I really didn't need the beating since I try to abide by our NCRS rules and regulations when judging. 'Nuff said.

Regards,
Kent Keech

[Chris Patrick]

Re: In Florida, word got around

Lost engine points? From what I gather, each section is a all or none proposition. So either it passed or didn't. I don't remember hearing anyone say it didn't pass, especially since it apparently passed at Bloomington, also.

Would you like to expand on the lost engine points?

[Jack H.]

Just like a race horse...

"For the record, restamping blocks is wrong. Period. The party stamping the block may have the most honorable of intentions but we all know that somewhere down the line that car is going to be passed off to someone as having its original engine"

Yep, that's a BAD Corvette... It lost its factory original motor, so we should simply take it to the crusher. It's JUST like the race horse that fell and broke a leg--you shoot em dead, don't ya?

Don't try to nurse that horse back to health. It's no longer W O R T H Y!!!

And because that fool Corvette went and lost its original engine, we have to PUNISH it properly for the rest of its eternal life. Darn tootin' we gotta teach that foolish machine a real lesson and make sure it NEVER receives top honors on the same judging field with all those REAL Corvetts that show up!

[mike cobine]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Greg, where have you been? In '98, I challenged this with letters to different NCRS officers. All that happened is they picked my letter to ridicule in the Corvette Restorer.

I stood up once, no need to now.

[Steve B.]

Re: Who does the best engine restamps?

Greg, my new favorite term for restoration motor is now "second generation motor" LOL