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Perspective

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  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • February 1, 1988
    • 43221

    Perspective

    I never fail to be amused when I see all the attention that old "muscle cars", including Corvettes, get in today's world. It's real obvious when one sees the prices that folks pay for these cars at various auctions and private sales. Folks lament the fact that the "golden age" of performance has long-passed. So, it seems, acquiring one of these old cars gives one a chance to re-live this "golden age". This includes folks who were around then, but couldn't afford one of the cars at the time, folks who did own one but sold it years ago for a variety of reasons, and folks too young to have experienced the "golden age of performance" and looking to "buy a ticket" to what it was like.

    Some time ago, I was in a bookstore and I was browsing through a book on muscle cars. Included in this book were actual road tests from magazine articles published when the cars were new. One that quickly got my attention was a road test in a popular car magazine of a 1968 Chevelle SS with L-78. As I've mentioned previously, I factory-ordered one of these cars brand new and recall it pretty well. My 68 Chevelle SS with L-78/M-22 would represent an "iconic" muscle car today. I recall it as being fast, but very trouble-prone. About 8 MPG was the absolute best that it ever got. How shocked I was to see that the original road test of a similar car published in the magazine showed the best 1/4 mile ET of 15.5 seconds!

    I was going through a copy of a very famous issue of Car Life Magazine with a cover date of July, 1969. This edition is the one that included road tests of 1969 Corvettes with every engine and transmission offered for the 1969 model year. I was a Car Life subscriber back then (I felt sorry for some kid selling magazine subscriptions and subscribed in about 1967 or 68) and I've saved this one edition of the magazine. In fact, it's still got the check marks I placed in it when I was deciding what options to select for my then soon-to-be-ordered 1969. Anyway, here are the 1/4 mile ET's found in this edition for each Corvette:

    300 hp with THM-400/3.08:1 axle----16.1 seconds

    L-46 with CR 4 speed/4.11:1 axle----14.55 seconds

    LT-1 (dealer modified L-46) with CR 4 speed/3.70:1 axle----14.44 seconds

    L-36 with WR 4 speed/3.08:1 axle-----15.02 seconds

    L-68 with THM-400/3.08:1 axle------14.70 seconds

    L-71 with CR 4 speed/4.11:1 axle----13.94 seconds

    L-71/L-89 with THM-400/3.36:1 axle-----14.58 seconds

    L-88 with THM-400/3.36:1 axle ratio-----14.10 seconds

    Just by coincidence, in the same issue there were tests of some other "muscle cars" including a Mustang Boss 429 (these things now make 67 Corvette big blocks look cheap at auctions), 1968 Hurst/Olds 455, and a 1969 Dodge 440 "six pack".

    Here's how they did in the 1/4 mile:

    Mustang Boss 429 with 4 speed and 3.91:1 axle----14.09 seconds

    Hurst/Olds with THM-400 and 3.42:1 axle ratio-----14.1 seconds

    Dodge 440 "six pack" with Torqueflite and 4.10:1 axle----13.8 seconds.

    Look at performance numbers for modern day cars in any current-day automotive magazine. You'll find that there are MANY cars that best the above numbers. Of course, 1/4 mile times are just one measure of performance. However, you'll find that by just about any measure, the modern day cars will do better, sometimes WAY better.

    For example, I once saw 2 road tests of 2004-2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP's like my daily driver. One test showed a 1/4 mile ET of 14.9 seconds and the other 15.0 seconds. So, this means that, as tested in completely stock configuration (generally, the configuration so-revered by just about everyone on this discussion board), my Grand Prix is faster than my 1968 Chevelle SS 396 L-78/M-22. Plus, the Grand Prix gets 20 MPG compared to my Chevelle's 8 MPG.

    I saw a Ford Mustang GT in a recent magazine road test. It turned a 1/4 mile time of 13.7 seconds. That makes it faster than ANY of the above "muscle cars" , including all of the 1969 Corvettes.

    So, the way I see it, the "golden age of performance" is NOW, NOT THEN!

    Of course, we all love the old cars for their "character" and "charm". I'm right at the top of that list. I'd rather drive my 1969 than any other modern car I can think of. But, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that they were the "fastest, best performing cars ever built". These old cars are ANTIQUES, pure-and-simple.
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley
  • Stephen L.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • May 31, 1984
    • 3158

    #2
    Re: Perspective

    Great info....

    Probably the 30+mpg rice rockets with the fartcan mufflers do even better.....

    Comment

    • Richard F.
      Very Frequent User
      • May 31, 1986
      • 193

      #3
      Re: Perspective

      Joe, How much do you think the "rim protectors" we called performance tires back then contributed to these unimpressive results?

      Comment

      • Mark S. Lovejoy

        #4
        Re: Perspective

        You nailed it Joe. The new Corvette will out perform all vintage Corvettes in every category.

        Acceleration, Brakes, Handling, Comfort.

        Curiously, the new Corvette is also the best $$$ for performance car on the market. Some cars perform just as well, maybe better in certain categories but alot more $$$.

        Hopefully the Corvette will save GM!

        Comment

        • mike valliant

          #5
          Re: Perspective

          If i was'nt so anal about the old girl sitting in the garage,
          I'm sure a new Shelby Mustang GT would be just the ticket.

          Comment

          • Jim D.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • June 30, 1985
            • 2884

            #6
            Re: Perspective

            The difference between the old and new "muscle cars" is that the owners of the old ones appreciate the nostalgia of them and the general public does also. The new "muscle cars" are usually owned by someone with nothing more than a checkbook that has never even changed their own oil. These cars are seen everyday and the general public couldn't care less. Park an old car on one side of the parking lot and a new one on the other and see what happens. Nobody will even acknowledge the existance of the new one.
            I sold my new Corvette because I never drove it. 2000 miles in 2 years. I put 4000 miles on my 60 in that same period.

            Comment

            • Jay G.
              Expired
              • August 31, 1993
              • 398

              #7
              Re: Perspective

              I must confess I never saw a Stock muscle car back in the day. A guy in H.S. whos family had $ was given a New 68 GTX 440. The Only stock muscle car I saw in school. Everyone took a wrench to these cars from headers, intakes, cams etc, to get the ultimate perfomance Sunoco 103 would give at 30cents (plus) per gallon. The nostaliga will push the market. But I wonder how many of these Investor types scaped knuckels lay on cold garage floor (on cardboard) just to drop that M-21 for the M-22 before Sat nite.

              Comment

              • Lyndon S.
                Expired
                • April 30, 1988
                • 1027

                #8
                Re: Perspective

                Yeah those old cars are antiques, just like some of the people on this board!

                Comment

                • Lyndon S.
                  Expired
                  • April 30, 1988
                  • 1027

                  #9
                  Re: Perspective

                  That is so true!

                  Comment

                  • Gary Schisler

                    #10
                    Re: Perspective

                    Joe,
                    You have hit the nail on the head when it comes to performance and the so called muscle car mystique. I was in college when the 72 Corvettes came out but for various reasons I bought another sports car. I now own that 72 LT-1 that I wanted but I would bet you a steak dinner that my wifes Lexus SUV will beat it in the 1/4 mile amd in just about any other performance or handling test you would want to subject them to. However, the look, the sound, the mystique, and even the smell of my 72 when I park in the garage tell me that I have the car I want. Every day thay I drive that LT-1 I do a full throttle run in first gear up to about 4 or 5000 rpm just to remind me what a wide open throttle Holley sounds like! Beats any sort of stimulation that I can think that anyone would want: Viagra, bouron, whatever.

                    Gary
                    ps, supposed to be 80 here in Pittsburgh, PA tomorrow. Do you think I will go out for a nice run in the LT-1?

                    Comment

                    • Frank C.
                      Expired
                      • January 1, 1986
                      • 277

                      #11
                      Re: Perspective

                      Joe...funny you should mention the Boss 429 Mustang. Back in the late 60's or early 70's, we were at drag event in Madras, Oregon and during time trials we up against a Boss 429 that the owner had purchased brand new the day before. at that time we were racing our '39 Chev sedan delivery with a cleaned up 283 (287 cu in) with a tunnel ram and roller cam. we literly blew his doors off, like 2 car lengths. end of story-----he took it back to the dealer he bought it from Monday. Great fun!!!!!

                      Comment

                      • Joe L.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • February 1, 1988
                        • 43221

                        #12
                        Re: Perspective

                        Kelly------

                        Yes, that's why we like them.
                        In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                        Comment

                        • Joe L.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • February 1, 1988
                          • 43221

                          #13
                          Re: Perspective

                          Frank-----

                          Biggest mistake the guy ever made. If he had kept the car, he could have just about retired on what he could sell it for now. I've seen "GRENADED" Boss 429 engines sell for over $25,000 on eBay.
                          In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                          Comment

                          • Joe L.
                            Beyond Control Poster
                            • February 1, 1988
                            • 43221

                            #14
                            Re: Perspective

                            Richard-----

                            Tires were a big factor. However, I'm talking here about completely stock tires on both the new and old cars. Once we start "changing things" we no longer have an apples-to-apples comparison. Also, a lot of these old cars wouldn't accept much larger tires without other modifications. For example, how large of a tire can you get on a stock C2 Corvette?

                            Sure, the performance of the old cars could be rather easily improved. But, the performance of the new cars can also be improved, albeit with more difficulty if one is to remain within emissions legality.
                            In Appreciation of John Hinckley

                            Comment

                            • Jim B.
                              Very Frequent User
                              • July 31, 2002
                              • 146

                              #15
                              Re: Perspective

                              Joe

                              I was a drag racer in the early to late 60's. I raced a 1955 Chev with a 57 283 in it. Your info is right on. The very hottest "Hemis's" and Big Blocks including the factory sponsored jobs would run in the 13's. To get any faster you had to have a full Blown race car with slicks and even those would only get into the 11's. Something a stock Z06 can do all day long.

                              What we called "slingshots" (ie top fuel) were getting in the 10's and 9's. You rarely saw a corvette on the track because first of all they cost a whole lot more and ran in a special class under NHRA rules which only allowed sports cars, and secondly they clearly did not perform on the drag strip anywhere near the hot muscle cars. Even the nostalgic L88's. Only the ZL-1 was competitive but best when in a Camaro or Chevelle.

                              Believe me, to get the muscle car numbers above, the muscle cars were stripped of any and all add ons including any decorative chrome. This made them VERY uncomfortable to drive on the street if in fact you could because some of them were not street legal such as the Ram inducted Hemi. I had a friend who bought a racing Ford Fairlane in 1962 and all of the chrome including the bumpers and the hubcaps came in a wrapped package in the trunk, not on the car.

                              Today a new Z06 would run with and beat any of the Muscle era full Race cars and any new C5 or C6 would out perform any muscle era stock car that you could put on the track. The new cars are truly remarkable as they also get 20+ mpg with air conditioning and Bose Stereo. It is far more than just tires, it is the whole package. My new fully equipped 2007 Z06 weighs less than my 1968 327/350HP stripped corvette that I used to race and has easily twice the horsepower and twice the rubber on the road. I have a Trailblazer SS (400hp LS2) which would run with any of the muscle cars (it truly feels like the old 396 chevelles and camaros) and it is an SUV. Now is a time that is truly a NEW MUSCLE CAR era that should be taken advantage of as it will surely end as the other one did.

                              The message is clear. Now is the time our kids will be longing for and buying the cars at Barrett Jackson that their fathers drove.

                              My thoughts

                              Jim Boudreaux
                              38390
                              Jim Boudreaux
                              LA Chapter, NCRS

                              _____________________________
                              1968 British Green Convertible 327/350HP Original Owner
                              2002 Z06 Black on Black Original Owner
                              2007 Z06 Velocity Yellow w/Black/Titainium Original Owner

                              Comment

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