"Perfect" Fake Documents???

[Dave F.]

Re: Would this work?

"Hit the "Buy it Now", get his name and address, then withdraw your bid? Ebay needs an Ethics Committee."

Verne,

From eBays standpoint, the seller is not doing anything illegal or unethical. He's put right in the auction description that it is a novelty item he's selling.

If you agree to buy it and then don't pay, you'd be sinking to the unethical level, even though we are all pretty sure that the seller knows what is actually being done with the paper he's creating.

-Dave

[Tony Merendino]

Re: Would this work?

Well we have created this monster and now we have to deal with it.

We have made originality and factory correctness such a very desirable and lucrative item that now the end justifies the means. For the amount of money that these cars bring it makes those of you who are morally deficient go to extreme means to make money. Unfortunately not everyone is a purist.

All those cars that we own that have risen significantly in value because they are original or correct and are now driving the market for fakes to new heights. If you can't find a restoration candidate why not build one from scratch? Soon there will be no market for these cars because no one will know what is real and what is a fraud.

Is it time to get out of the hobby and take our profits and run or should we stand and fight? The question is easily answered but the solution is difficult to find.

So guys what do we do?

[Philip C.]

Hall of Shame

Then you have people on this board telling everyone a car is "Legit"when its not! a car shown at BM special collection doesnt mean is real! On big dollar or any dollar car BUYER BEWARE do your home work, find the previous owners. Tell the owner to put it in writing. Phil 8063

[Mark #28455]

It's all shades of gray

First let me start by saying I fully agree that we need to protect the "pedigrees" of the real cars and should not assist in the production of "fakes". I have original unrestored P.O.S. L88 and L89's and someday nobody will believe they're "real" so I have a vested interest in this too.

Now for the shades of gray! NCRS members over the years have accumulated a hoard of original, rare parts. They buy and sell those parts, but are we all expected to verify where those parts are going? What about the member who recently auctioned off his ZO6? When he sells his hoard of original ZO6 parts, are they going to a known original ZO6 car? What about the NCRS DRIVELINE? Why do we have ads from "Go_t H_lls" in our own publication hawking restamped starters - yes, you can buy a restamped L88 starter for about $300 (if you ever get it ). So who is doing wrong and what shade of gray is acceptable!

What about all those pre build sheet and trim tag cars that the owner "believes" were original "fuelies"? Do you personally verify all the fuelie units you rebuild are going to a "real" fuelie?

DON'T GET ME WRONG, I really do appreciate you and many others who help all of us restore our cars - I can't imagine how many fuelies wouldn't be running well or at all without your years of experience and help, but just where is that magic line in the sand when our own DRIVELINE advertises for restamped parts? I'm surprised the seller of this paperwork isn't advertising there too!

If you're in Orlando, give me a call, we'll sit down for a cold one!
Mark

[Roy B.]

Re: It's all shades of gray

Mark
Your discussing a subject where many people think the same that have a real Corvettes. I've been in to Corvette before NCRS came along and remember people wonting a Corvette that was different then the base module. That was neat back then and interesting but now it's a every day sight when attending a meet to see mostly FI ,2x4 or BB engines.. I hear "those" owners of Corvette being asked all the time now (is it a original Corvette) and the owners having to defend what they have. That never was the case in the past it was just (wow what a neat Corvette you have). It' sad that we have come to this, SB Corvettes , single Carb's get little attention. If you go to sell or show the first thing a buyer will ask is (do you have all the paper work to prove it).
There is no magic line any more and never will be! Any made up Corvette WILL get top flight or better or Bloomington Gold or better, that's a fact!! Like it or not, no body can de-nie there are more FI-BB-OZ6- L88's then GM ever made and having all the paper in the world they need to prove it.
I know this Harping upsets a few people on this forum that I always bring it up answering. What are their answers??
Mine is this=All that , only matters to many that are going for NCRS , Bloomington, selling or buying them . Most people never drive those Corvette any distance to enjoy what they are any way. There are two groups of people, investors(money) and enthusiast (enjoyment).

Decide which group makes you happy and go for it.

[G B.]

Some things are just wrong

I think every adult should be able to distinguish between right and wrong. Sure, there are lawyers who will argue (for a price) that no behavior is really evil, but that doesn't make it true.

Creating $200 aged tank stickers for old Corvettes is wrong. Every single one of these fakes will be used in an attempt to cheat someone, somewhere, at some time out of money they wouldn't have paid otherwise. This scumbag knows he's helping promote fraud too.

I'm sure I'll go to my grave not understanding why some people do awful things. This "aged tank sticker" seller is probably going to be such a mystery to me. But I'm going to say what I think about his business. To sit back in silence and just ignore this kind of crap isn't acceptable to me.

[Verne Frantz]

Re: Some things are just wrong

Jerry,

Your feelings and statements could not echo mine more closely, except that I believe this is not just a "Corvette" problem. There are MANY other cars in the "hobby" that are commanding much more money than most Corvettes, and there is a full aged "perfect" documentation packet for those cars as well (for a price). This particular forger probably started his project just after this past January's BJ auction when all he saw was dollar signs. I've changed my opinion that any focused effort in the hobby should identify him (and then do WHAT?) The concerned people in this hobby should be trying to identify those who are BUYING his stuff! Then, at least, we might have a clue as to whether a car that comes up for sale might be "not" real.

He's doing this because he has a market of bad guys who want to cash in, and they know that documentation is (right now) what everyone wants to see before dropping obscene amounts of cash.

OK, if "we" identify this scumbag (to use your very accurate description), all we do is put ONE guy out of service. If we can eliminate his advertising venue, then we keep people from using his (or other similar scumbag's) services.

A partner of mine, in the research I do, recently sent this letter to Ebay:

Hello again. I emailed in April with concerns about a user who was auctioning a vehicle VIN & body tag set. It happened again recently:
4642530152 The listing cleverly avoided the phrase "VIN," undoubtedly to
evade your keyword filters. But the photo told the story: a 1962 Chevrolet "body" tag, with half of a Chevrolet VIN tag apparent behind it. The portion of the VIN sequence revealed suggested they were a matched pair.
It's like a "forgery in an envelope" kit. With a mail-order title, a new car can be born, or an old (or stolen!) '62 convertible can now be rebadged and re-enter society. Whether or not the claim is true that this car was junked years ago, it is a violation of federal law to remove a VIN tag. I'm not aware of an age allowance.

Although not illegal on the federal level, I ask you folks review auction
4644862923 This is another forgery tool. Again, despite the description
of this being "a novelty," these papers violate eBay's policy (Government IDs and Licenses section): "Any item that is primarily used to alter identification documents, licenses, or plates." The classic car hobby puts a premium on "original" cars, and here's an enterprising person offering to FABRICATE a set of documents! It is morally wrong, and eBay should terminate this listing. "ALL YOU NEED TO HAVE IS THE SERIAL NUMBER OF YOUR CAR ,ALL THE OPTIONS IT HAS ,TRIM TAG INFORMATION AND STATE YOU THINK IT WAS ORIGINALLY SOLD IN ..I WILL SUPPLY THE REST ......"

It upsets me greatly that the profit motive among auto "restorers"
(enhancers may be a better term) has risen to the point of justifying tag trading, document fabrication, etc. In the strictest sense, the sale of the so called "cowl"/body/trim/paint/accessory tags violates the same eBay
policy: because they are "valuable" for altering the identity of a car.
Common "upgrades" are from a typical Chevrolet Impala trim level to an Impala SS, from an automatic transmission to manual, or to imply that certain accessories were factory-installed to that car. The "Body by Fisher" tags on Chevrolets (actually all General Motors cars of the mid '50s through early '70s) are coded with unique identifiers such as model year and body style, plant code, and sequence number at that plant of that body style. Therefore, no two "body tags" could ever be identical. And there is a distinct relationship of body numbers to VIN numbers. Every unique VIN tag was mated with a unique body tag. In many model years the body tag had a prominent date code, which can quickly be referenced against other date-coded parts on the car, including the engine. So mounting a "used" tag onto a car is statistically bound to be wrong.

eBay would be wise to prohibit listings of any unique vehicle data tags, i.e. VIN and body, and other identifying documents such as dealer invoices, window stickers, "build-sheets," Protect-O-Plates, warranty booklets, etc.
And any services offering "blank" versions of these items and/or "services"
to forge these articles should be prohibited from listing on eBay.

Just so we're clear, I respect eBay's current decisions, but hope that as you continue to research the topic you'll come to see that prohibiting these instruments of forgery would be good policy. I welcome questions or requests for clarification.

Thanks!

Ebays, reply was:

Dear (xxxxxx),

Thank you for writing to eBay in regard to these auctions which you feel are in violation of eBay policy.

I've reviewed the information you provided and can assure you that we've taken the appropriate actions in accordance with our listing policies.

Violations of eBay policies may result in a range of actions, including listing cancellation, limits on account privileges, account suspension, forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings, and loss of PowerSeller status.
Due to eBay's Privacy Policy, we cannot share specific information about the other member's account or the actions we have taken.

For more information about our listing policies, go to:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/items-policies.html

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Elijah
eBay Customer Support

I will be forwarding a copy of this entire thread to Ebay (I sure hope that doesn't violate the policies of this board). Like I said, Ebay Motors needs an Ethics Committee. I think Ebay has grown too big too fast, and they just do not realize the easy venue they have created for counterfeiting and fraud. They're probably trying to the best they can, but without the resources or enough input from those of us who are closer to the problem, it will never get fixed. It's up to everyone of us who is unhappy with these deceptive practices to let ANYONE who helps to promote them know that it is WRONG.

I hope my partner and I will not be the only ones to try to enlighten (and help) Ebay to understand the wrongfullness of these practices and the need to develop a way to screen, detect and remove the market accessibility of these scumbags.

Verne...................

[mike cobine]

Re: Would this work?

I agree, Tony.

Everything about NCRS and Bloomington Gold leads the public to believe that an NCRS or BG car is just better than other Corvettes. It doesn't matter that the certificate says it doesn't assign value or such, our actions and our hype says these Corvettes are better.

When they were $5000 cars, it was no big deal if the NCRS Corvette was $6000 and the NOM driver was $4000. But when those numbers became $80,000 and up vs. the $40,000 and down driver, you can bet no one wants to suddenly be on that kind of losing side.

Then the paperwork craze. It has been stated on here many times in the last year, if a car doesn't have documentation, you should be very wary of it.

Yet, as many who were around from 30 and 40 years ago know, paperwork was the first thing tossed by many owners and all used car dealers.

If I had an undocumented car that I knew was real, I'd pay $200 in a heartbeat for the paper. Why? Because while I could carry on a good arguement and provide proof to a buyer, odds are the seller would be my wife after I'm gone. Do I want her taking a 50% hit on the price because buyers have been brainwashed to believe only documented cars are worth money?

She'll get screwed on the price anyway, just like most grieving (and not so grieving) widows do, but there is no point is making it worse for her, is there?

[Gordon Peterson #4961]

Ebay Ebay Ebay

Taking this guy (or is it guys?) off Ebay won't slow them down. Their market is already established. If you want to obtain fake documentation, all you'll have to do is Google it. They'll be out there waiting for you, Ebay or not.

This is a nice first step perhaps. You'll send a message. But they're way beyond Ebay.

Pete

[john t wilson]

Re: "Perfect" Fake Documents???

I have examined one of the items reproduced by 69posi(BRIAN MALLYON according to invoice.) And it was not bad .However it is very doubtful it would fool a NCRS JUDGE ages or not.(im refering to aged paperwork not the judge). As for unware buyers (like myself)most dont realize what value correct documentation add to a car. It would be nice if someone would put together a list or cheat sheet of known flaw of reproduction parts ex wrong font size;incorrect arrows on some reproduction RC15 radiator caps : no circle around the "S" on reproduced C3 STANT gas cap (the only two I know).

[Mark #28455]

trouble is that then they can improve the fakes *NM*

[Patrick H.]

Re: "Perfect" Fake Documents???

Look at the recent Restorer article for pictures of the correct arrows on reproduction caps.

Most reproduction caps (if not all) are easily identifiable by the configuration of the rivet. The arrow is usually the clincher.

Patrick