One guys opinion

[Roy B.]

There are many postings on this forum about little things being original that you might loose points on this or that in getting a Top Flight award, and getting a judge knowing what is and ant correct. In my opinion you need a judge that has experience in restoring a Corvette, currently owns that year Corvette being judged, and actually drives a Corvette.
When we decided to enter our 55 Corvette at Park City 05 National meet because of the 50th year for them we were curious how it would do. Only three times have we ever entered a Corvette do to the fact we drive them and I'm not in to getting awards.I like parts of NCRS and not others, I've been a judge from the start of NCRS , I was a judge 53 to 55 at Park City and (have NO level or hat ).
So about our 55!
Arriving at Park City pulling a 1947 tear drop trailer and seeing a field full of car trailers felt like mistakenly walking into a ladies bath room. We were told we had to keep our Corvette on the field or loose being judged, we did how ever drive off each day for sight seeing ( our only car) and they later said OK. For people that don't know or seen our 55 it has many accessories and after market items . After restoring it some 25 years ago we added over a 100,000 miles on it. Yes! We drive it ,been to NY , Canada and every were in between from Ca.where we live. Knowing it would get zero points and did was==
1 paint==I told them it was a two part clear job
2 Wheels== are KH wire wheels a dealer accessory
3 Hub caps== because of the wire wheels
4 Tires== we run Radios we drive so much
5 battery== it has the Optima battery
And under Operation we lost only 5 points because the Auto. Trans leaks a little. ( they had use park on cement)
We had a total of 87.8 points and for driving 650 miles there we got 6.5 bring it to 94.3 a top flight, if we would have had a NCRS sticker, fire extinguisher, and battery cutoff we could have added more points.
We left before the awards banquet to beat the next day heat and later by mail found out we got a Top Flight.
WOW! To say the least we were shocked but happy.
The moral to this story is that NCRS don't require you to trailer or have paint over sprayed exhaust to get a flight award if that is not your thing. I have no trouble with those Corvettes, I'm just not in to it.
But my story should lesion your stress about NCRS which is a great organization for every one. Remember a top flight award is like having a plane ticket which is only good for that day because the owner can remove all original parts later in selling their Corvette. NCRS is not in the business to pedigree your Corvette for resale. So when I see a Corvette bragging about having a top flight award that is for sale it means little to me till I see or have a experience judge look it over.
We were lucky to have older experience judges that remember when most all people drove their Corvette, they recognized a real original driven Corvette and we thank them for their time .
Yes we don't have a NCRS sticker on the windshield.

[Dick G.]

Re: One guys opinion

Roy: Thanks for a great post. I spent 3 1/2 years of my life restoring my old, but gone, 57 which recently was up for sale on Ebay. I put maybe 100 miles on it when done. I never got it judged, my fault. After all the work I went through personally in all the body and paintwork, etc. I was paranoid of all things that could happen to a car on the road. How do I break that mindset? Booze helps, just kidding. To let go is difficult. I envy you! My 65 will be done hopefully in a year and I too will get her judged this time. An elder freind of mine has personally restored over 30 56-57 corvettes. I told him he should be a judge for that class, he has no interest in judging. What an asset he would be. He does stellar work. He is always restoring a 56-57 corvette in the 12 years I have known him. He finishes 1 in about a years time. I feel that NCRS members who restore their own cars and drive them, should be amply rewarded in the judging process. How would one prove this is the problem. My Opinion only. Thanks Dick Gutman

[Robert S.]

Re: One guys opinion

Great post Roy! Helps newbie like me get a prespective. Just your luck your car couldn't have been on the grass to the left or right as shown in the picture.

But it was probably your own fault for driving too fast or maybe not fast enough, then you would have registered earlier or later...ha ha

[Wayne M.]

They should'a judged the Teardrop

... taken in Seaside OR, at Northwest Regional 2004.

[Roy B.]

Re: One guys opinion "Dick"

"I feel that NCRS members who restore their own cars and drive them, should be amply rewarded in the judging process. How would one prove this is the problem. My Opinion only."

The judge that is only book smart or has taken classes, would be a person not willing to consider any thing different then what the JM has to say! (I said ONLY book smart). It would be hard for me to build a home with out any hands on experience just reading a book no matter how many times I read the same book.

I think some people that drive and have restored Corvettes for a long time see problems with the JM and don't need or wont the friction between owner and NCRS.

I might be wrong , but a large % of corvettes being judged to day are there getting petagreed for re-sale. Stop and think , how many of those top award Corvettes are ever seen again?? NCRS cant control what happens after wards , but gets criticized if the new owner is dissatisfied .This is the reason I have often said there should be two classes in the flight awards.

1 For those that don't and will never drive their Corvette
2 For those that drive their Corvette

It would not take an atomic scientist to tell each apart to get qualified. That would bring many new owners in to NCRS ending ( you know what I mean) the argument between big dollars and the hobbyist type person. ( you use the wording that fits you best).

Some people could or cant or don't wont to afford a $45k truck and a $25K trailer to haul their Corvette around. That is the reason there are so many Corvette clubs and members that fare out number NCRS having wonderful real driven Corvettes in them.
But again! That my lonely opinion and 2 cents.

[Roy B.]

Re: They should'a judged the Teardrop

Yes! that week end it rained all the time and was neat driving with the bubble top on in it. We took hwy 1 all the way home ,what a drive.

[Myron Sleeva]

[Tracy C.]

Re: One guys opinion

There's alot about his story that we don't know. Was the "stupid" judge asking about a year in which he was "certified" for? A C1 judge inquiring about C2 or C3 wouldn't bother me. Even a 53/55 guy asking about a 59/60 wouldn't shake me up up too much. Judges aren't supposed to know it all, but they do need how to read the manual outlining the standard for the car the are looking at.

Maybe the poor guy asking questions was just an OJ and not "certified" at all.

tc

[Myron Sleeva]

Re: One guys opinion

Perhaps you misunderstood. The conversation was between two judges commenting on a third judge. They were in essence judging the capabilities of the guy and it was one of THEM that called the third fellow stupid. My friend is not editorializing - he is recalling the conversation. Being a non Corvette person, he would not use terminology like "certified judge" if he did not hear it from the two judges.

For the record, my friend who over heard this conversation is not some Bubba who misheard. He holds a degree as a mechanical engineer and is the general manager of a large production facility.

[Tracy C.]

Re: One guys opinion

Peace Myron,

I'm not picking a fight here, but the team "certified judge" certainly isn't limited to the Corvette hobby. I'm sure the poodle judges at a dog show are also certifed. I'm not suggesting his story is enhanced but I'm sure your friend is smart enough to but the two words together on his own.

Even if we disregard the OJ comment, the other unknowns still exist.

No one claims perfection here.

tc

[Myron Sleeva]

Re: One guys opinion

Hello Tracy,

No offence taken from this side either. The point I am trying to make, maybe even belabor, is that people are bringing their pride and joy, maybe even blood, sweat, and tears and placing them on the alter to be poked and proded by the experts. Hell, they even pay for the abuse! Then after either achieving or worse yet, failing to meet the standard, they learn that the examination was froth with error! Sure makes a fellow want to follow suit or return to endure the process a second time. What if the new judge has the LATEST JG and you just spent the mortgage money to get up to speed as spelled out in the now out of print issue? Or as someone suggested in a private email, 50 experts debating the authenticity of a wing nut. What if the judge is walking up to your car and his first question is "What year is this so I can get the right manual?"

I agree - it's not perfect but perhaps since it is not an exact science, more latitude can be permitted or even encouraged for a car that had a leak because, shame on the owner, it was driven. Or maybe that bolt has a slightly different coloration because it was actually exposed to some engine heat.

The danger comes when an organization fails to meet the needs of it's customers or members. The people walk.

Myron

[Mike E.]

Re: One guys opinion

Myron--I agree with your last statement 100%. Some months ago we had an extended thread on that very subject. I weighed in on that one because of my experience as the "CEO" of a 7500-member volunteer organization. (I'm the senior pastor of large church (and by the way, it's altar, not alter))--Your statement is right on. However, we need to uderstand that there are various needs that our clientele has, and the judging process, inexact as it is and has to be (because of the use of human beings)is only part of what NCRS is about.
I see another equally disturbing, if not more disturbing, portion of what you shared--and that is the arrogance of the judge that was overheard. As one who put together national judging teams for 61 and 62 for years, I found that a judge who was willing to admit he didn't know it all and was open to learn was a much better judge than the arrogant one who knew it all.
In spite of all we want to think--the hobby is about people, the cars are just an excuse to bring us together. Too many forget that in our hobby and everywhere else in life.
Thanks, especially for your last statment!
Mike Ernst

[Roy B.]

Re: One guys opinion

I've had many so called newbee's and members e-mail me asking if we felt out of place by driving and entering our 55 Corvette in judging. NO! And I am not ashamed to respond here ether. The Corvette is not our only classic we own, I' am a guy that feels if I cant drive and use it there not worth having to me , I dint restore them for some one els to get and enjoy. Besides the worry about destroying it in a crash ( I have Hagerty set at 100K) I've had it repainted once, rebuilt the trans twice, three brake jobs and replaced the repro $150.00 spark plug wires four times and original plugs many times and so on. I cant start to tell you what enjoyment and great fun times we' v have had in it. Every dollar spent was worth the fun. Any one that has seen our 55 can see that it's not a beat up piece of Sh*t. Beside road dirt under it I keep it nice.
To be totally truthful I feel sorry for the guys that trailer their 100K restored cars that also made top flight next to a well driven top flight Corvette.
But they might be going for the Duntov award %97 points, doing three event duty , no way a real driven Corvette can get that?? Or has some one done that??

[Dick W.]

Re: One guys opinion

Several driven cars have acheived the Duntov award, including Wendel Hans from your area, who drove his car to the East coast to receive his award.

[Jack H.]

Ditto...

When I worked high tech electronics and was engineering VP, I'd frequently be part of the new hire interview process, Mike. Whenever a hire candidate had ALL the answers to questions put to him, I was loathe to recommend the hire. But, the guy who said, "I don't know the answer there, but give me a day or so." got my thumbs up on the spot!!!

The world is shades of grey with black on one end of the spectrum and white at the other. Knowing what you know and what you don't know can be a real artform. He who knows he doesn't know, has hope because he's 'teachable'...