One guys opinion

[Terry M.]

Re: One guys opinion

Allow me to suggest that your friend's observation -- taken out of the context of the observed conversation -- might not be the whole story. Some very skilled judges might not be able to tell the difference between certain years outside the area in which they usually judge. Many judges tend to specialize in certain years, and even certain areas (interior, mechanical, chassis, or exterior) within those years. There are a few people who have judging expertise across a broad range of years, but most do not.
It might be a case of semantics, but I am not aware that NCRS "certifies" judges. We do have a system which awards participants points for judging and attending judging training sessions. This system, while far better than no system, awards points for participation. It is not a measure of skill or emotional maturity. It is, however, the only measure we have at the moment.

[Michael H.]

Re: One guys opinion

I agree with Terry and I'm probably a good example of what he's talking about. I know a few things about 63-67 but I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to 68 and newer. I still can't tell what year they are without looking at the VIN. Same for most of the 53-62 cars. I have no idea what the difference is between a 59 and a 60. Information that may be ground level first grade to some may be deep outer space to others.

[Myron Sleeva]

Re: One guys opinion

Yes of course anything is possible. It's possible these judges were "poodle judges" who happened to be walking throught Old Town. It is interesting how everyone is jumping into the fray with their hypothesis of a situation they were miles away from. You know what they say about opinions - everyone has one.

Regardless of who knew what, the fact still remains that two judges agreed that the third was STUPID and they wondered OUT LOUD how many other mistakes might have been made. Has no one ever encountered in their workplace a person who had been hired by the "experts" in HR and in short order determined the new hire was, to use the vernacular, STUPID

As Will Rogers once said, we are all ignorant, just on different subjects. Once, while discussing staff issues, a fellow businessman said that he could overcome ignorance but STUPID was to the bone.

Of course no one can be expected to know everything and that is not what is being said here. But the fact - yes fact - is that one judge felt another was STUPID and voiced that notion. Why is it beyond the realm of possibility that the one who made the statement knew what he was talking about? Afterall it has been suggested that everything else seems possible. But no of course not! Anyone who is chosen ( or should I say ANNOINTED) to act as a judge is anything but completely well versed. Could it be that just ONE judge might have, if not rusty, a tarnished halo! Regardless of what is or is not possible, one must conclude that there is skepticism within the judging community. Why is there such a trend to spin this in another direction?

[Roy B.]

Re: One guys opinion terry so

(but I am not aware that NCRS "certifies" judges)

What do the points mean on their hat? Master judge what?? for a certain year? or any year? I realy dont know and never thought of it before!

[Michael H.]

Re: One guys opinion

Myron,

I'm not trying to "spin this in another direction", at all. My post/statement had to do with a judge that may be well qualifyed in one category and not another. I may be wrong but that's what I thought the discussion had shifted towards.

I couldn't agree more with the fact that a 65 judge better know a 65 inside and out, or at least the area that he/she is judging, but there's absolutely no reason that I can think of that this same person should be required to ANYTHING, at all, about a 62.

In my opinion, there's nothing worse than a limited experience judge making decisions on a car that has been properly prepared for show. If a judge doesn't know the material, he's doing no one any good, and shouldn't be allowed within 50 feet of a judging sheet.

I think it may all boil down to who is calling who stupid. I know for a fact that if I were judging 63-64, I would probably be called stupid also because I disagree with many of the things in the judging guide and would deviate from the printed guidelines. I'd like to hear both sides of this story before I have any opinion. I don't know enough about this particular situation to comment and I shouldn't have.

[Terry M.]

Re: One guys opinion terry so

Roy,
At this time there is no way to tell how the points were earned. To the best of my knowledge, no record is kept of what year(s) the person judged or what areas the person judged. It is a fairly large task to keep track of the total points earned by the judges. I am told refining the data in greater detail would require a larger judging office staff.

[Roy B.]

Re: One guys opinion terry so

I thought each time a person was a judge they got points and could get more by going to judging school ,that's how they get them , but it don't pertain to any certain year Corvette just increasing their points, so a master judge with 100's of points could judge any year Corvette weather they know that year Corvette or not . Would like to know how they get them and does that mean ONE year model only or any year they like to judge??

Do you know??? I dont!!

[Jack H.]

Understand how the system works...

Judging is a service provided by NCRS members to NCRS members and it's a 'best effort' situation which is why there's a bold face disclaimer on the back of each Flight Certificate. I absolutely GUARANTEE you, there will be errors of commission and errors of ommission at each and every meet you attend....

The Judging Recognition Program is essentially a 'time and grade' system. You get points for judging a car, observing others judging cars, attending judging schools, managing a judging session (Meet Chairman, Team Leader), and attending certain qualified technical seminars. The only thing that's measured by the level of the fob beneath a judging pin is how much TIME one has spent in the endeavor. There is no 'competency based instruction' (pass this test before you can advance) in our system.

That's the issue Roy Sinor is trying to come to grips with in his efforts to improve the club through judging schools. But, in an all volunteer organization such as ours, it's an iterative process.... You can't bark orders from the top of the chain of command as you can do in other organizations...

Plus, there are the bona fide exceptions... Consider the first Flight Judging meet in the UK back in '98 or last year's start up in Australia. There were something like EIGHT experienced Yank judges who'd made the trek over paying their own way from their own pockets. On arrival, they were met with 10-15 cars to judge and only two days to get the job done! In both cases, the new chapters HAD to comply with NCRS requirements to conduct judging, at least annually, in order to maintain their chapter charter status....

This is a Catch-22 situation...how to you deliver expertise where there is little or none? You do it the way the club's always done it by pitching in to volunteer, work together, use the apprenticeship approach and improve with time. Bottom line, what are the requirements to be an NCRS judge?

Answer:

(1) Be a member in good standing of NCRS.

(2) Agree to obey the club's published rules to the best of your ability.

[Terry M.]

Re: One guys opinion terry so

"Would like to know how they get them and does that mean ONE year model only or any year they like to judge??"

Roy, you have it right in your post. One earns points by judging, going to approved judging schools, and/or administering meets -- like Jack said. The judging points are not tracked by the year of car (or area of the car) one judges.
Most judges, by the time they reach master level, know better than to judge cars which they are not schooled in -- but on occasion say at a chapter meet, one will have to judge outside of ones skill set in order to accommodate those members who brought a car for judging. There is nothing to stop this from happening. In those situations one hopes the judge remembers that the benefit of the doubt goes to the car.
In order to judge one has to volunteer for the job, and be accepted by the judging officials. This two part system usually keeps judges within their field of expertise -- much to the relief of the judges, the car owners, and the meet administrators.

[Roy B.]

Re: Understand how the system works...

Jack
Help me understand some thing !
A:= No judge at any level ( master and down) is a particular so called person that is understood to be the last word in knowing only one year Corvette? Or to say any master judge or other judge is the last word on a certain year Corvette?
B:= If this is true any judge holding any level can be asked to judges any year Corvette.
C:= Any judge can request any year which they wont to judge.
D:= So no judge is certified to be judging a certain year Corvette by NCRS if I read your post right

Then this may be the reason some owners might complain that a judge dint seem to know about their Corvette being judged , I've seen the same persons ( judge) cover different years at different meets.

Team Leaders I know have the last word pertaining to complaints between the owner and judge, so a team leader should or does know any year Corvette better then a judge?
I've been team leader in the past and that was my responsibility
Am I correct in my explanation?? Thanks

[Roy B.]

Re: One guys opinion terry so

Your right!
And thinking back when I was more involved with NCRS judging and some times team Leader I wore two hats.
1= being a judge I had to go by the JM
2= As a team Leader when an owner questioned his judge about a part he felt or new was original, questioning the JM he expected me to know the answer being over the person judging his Corvette.
I and many other team leaders would over ride the JM when we knew it was wrong or felt the judge was over reaching . My concern was a judge penalizing some one on condition when the owner drove his or her Corvette in comparing it to a Trailered Corvette.That was a real sore spot back when people just started trailering Corvettes and now also with so few driven Corvettes.
But NCRS is the best game in town and if some one don't like it , then don't play !!