Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake - NCRS Discussion Boards

Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

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  • Jack W.
    Very Frequent User
    • August 31, 2000
    • 358

    #16
    Re: My 2 cents.

    As one who has loved Corvettes from afar my entire life, been an NCRS member for nearly ten years, but only last year finally got my first "classic" Corvette of my dreams (65), let me just add a thought:

    First, as I mentioned, I just bought a 65 last year - did not set out to, or have to, get an original engine car, but when you are looking at a range of cars that include some that do claim to have the orignal engine, such "numbers matching cars" do inlcude a premium in the sales price (I would guess around 25% +/-) directly attributable to this fact, so given the state of affairs in the used Corvette marketplace these days (i.e. restampings, etc) I had to become like Sherlock Holmes (o.k., I admit to it being fun, in a twisted way) and learn all about engine casting dates, casting numbers, "birthdays", body build codes, etc. etc. etc. in order to know if the car was as represented, because the sales price included a charge for this. And, in the case of the car I bought, the seller was truly innocent, he had bought the car himself as a "numbers" car, paid a premium for it, and was in turn selling it on that basis too, but blithely assumed such was the case; he had no idea where the engine stamp pad was until I schooled him on it. Call him an innocent reseller.

    OK, so on to the NCRS, which, in the case of flight judging, is an immensely fun pastime for folks, who like to see how close they can get their car to a "benchmark", in this case "as delivered" to shorthand it. I have no quarrel with how folks choose to enjoy their time and money in this fashion; personally I have never entered a car for judging and no one has a gun to my head to do so. And I have no problem with NCRS flight judging folks doing whatever it takes to achieve their benchmark, but this INCLUDES the VIN-derivative stamp on the engine. So the hobby ends up, unintentionally, creating cars with not-original engines that look (of course, that is the intent) as if they were original, including the stamp pad. No intention to decive the public at large yet, I agree the word "Fake" includes an element of intent. It only becomes "fake" when the owner of a re-stamped "not - original" engine car then sells the car and "charges" a premium for the car having an original (dare I use the phrase "numbers-matching") engine. THAT is not the intention of the NCRS hobby, of course, and most NCRS folks do not themselves sell their cars in this deceiptful fashion.

    But these cars get sold again, and again, and the honest NCRS guy who would readily admit to a "restoration" engine is not there to tell the truth, and perhaps an "innocent reseller" is now sellig the car as a numbers matching orignal engine car, and seeking to collect a 25% premium for that. NCRS is, in effect, not unlike a group of artists who compete to see who can copy a Picasso perfectly, but then these Picassos make their way out into the general market place. It might be the artists' fault, but it is not their intention, they are just enjoying their "game".

    Solution? IMHO, One of these two - (1) NCRS stops judging stamp pads on engines, period, even asks that owners put a piece of tape over the pad so it cannot come into play unintentionally - this would end the impetous in the NCRS arena to create realistic, but problematic, matching number stamp pads; or (2) require any "restored" stamp pad NCRS-judged car to be registered as such in a published, easily-searchable by VIN database, so subsequent prospective purchasers can easily check up on a car's status (hey if the NCRS "game" is as I described, folks should have no problem with this one, as they are not creating fake matching engines with a view towards enhancing resale value, right?)

    Then and only then can this fine hobby and organization (I mean that) distance itself from the uninteded "fake matching number cars" problem it is feeding. It is really a serious source of negativity, imho. Myself I would vote for a "stamp pad ignored / taped over" solution.
    65 MM Convertible, L76 (365 hp)

    Comment

    • Michael H.
      Expired
      • January 29, 2008
      • 7477

      #17
      Re: My 2 cents.

      Jack,

      I think you may be on to something here. I like your idea of either giving an owner the option of not having the stamp pad judged at all or placing a notation on the certificate that states that the engine stamp pad numbers appear to have been reproduced/restamped. Interesting concept.

      It will be interesting to see how others feel about this. It would also be interesting if all the people that reply would state, at the end of their post, if their car has or does not have the original block. More on this later. It gets interesting.

      Michael

      Comment

      • Mike Cobine

        #18
        Re: My 2 cents.

        For the record, one original beyond a doubt, one a CE, and one is believed original but can't prove.

        Comment

        • Roy B.
          Expired
          • February 1, 1975
          • 7044

          #19
          Re: Real or Fake WHY

          I must say that I get a kick out of these postings. Restored,original, survivor and on and on. Now I know why I never have any of my Corvettes judged. But I did many years ago, then realized I was trying to meet a stander or get approval for my Corvettes , and Why ? statue, resale? I've been a team caption and judge many time over the 30 years of NCRS . I not complaining , just re-realizing how good it is to drive my Corvettes and having the people I meet while driving, appreciating seeing it and asking questions. As I always tell people ,that I restored it for ME and my Wife to enjoy and not for value or to store it. Our Corvette "hobby" is wonderful and rewarding in so many ways. When we love our cars, we spend so much time and money that we hope the in vestment is a good one. To me the Corvette is not going to loose %25 a year that a new car would. Time it self will increase it's value and return your investment. I see many good or better Corvettes in the parking lot , then I just judge. As stated in the last NCRS meet in Oregon.less then %10 of known Corvettes have been or know of NCRS and less then %5 of them have had them judged. The number game, pedigree papers and money circle is vary small if we look at the big picture.
          NCRS doesn't set a value , you do! A person selling a top flight Corvette means nothing to me, they can change it right after judging, removing things of rare value. So we set the value when looking at the Corvette.

          Comment

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