Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake - NCRS Discussion Boards

Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

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  • Mike Cobine

    Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

    Mike,

    This is starting to be a very interesting thread. The only problem is, it's so far down the tree that very few people are going to see it. I think it would be an interesting topic to start fresh so that all the members can add their thoughts.

    Michael


    I think they will find it. I also think it is too sensitve to touch. I've already had a couple of private notes on it. We have been down this road before.

    I only went as far as I did because Rick is worried about how the error in his trim tag will affect "value" of his car when it comes time to "judge" it in NCRS.
  • Michael W.
    Expired
    • April 1, 1997
    • 4290

    #2
    ???????? *NM*

    Comment

    • RICK CHARLES

      #3
      Re: ????????

      IS THIS ABOUT ( 1963 LADY ) ZO6 ?

      Comment

      • Mike Cobine

        #4
        I knew this wouldn't work Michael

        The thread that Michael Hanson thought shoudl be restarted so more could see it is here:


        Or just page down several times until to see the Subject Engine #.

        Comment

        • Michael H.
          Expired
          • January 29, 2008
          • 7477

          #5
          Re: Real or Fake - they are all fake

          I see what you mean Mike. I didn't know this was a touchy subject. I was just curious as to how others felt but I sure didn't want to start a major debate.

          Michael

          Comment

          • Kevin Whiteley

            #6
            My 2 cents.

            This appears to be a wide-ranging post, so I'll do my best to add to the confusion. The question about the green/yellow car seems to be answered. I'm not a judge and have not had my car judged, but I think that the rules say that as long as the owner/entrant can document any discrepancies (including I would think a typo trim tag), then there won't be any deductions. The exterior code on the trim tag says one thing, but the overwhelming evidence, such as tank sticker, owner statements, POP, etc, show otherwise. My conclusion: no deduct.

            As far as the statement, and I'll paraphrase, "all restorations are fake". I'll have to disagree. The terms "fraud", "fake" and other like terms have as an element, the intent to deceive. In restoring a car, there is no intent to deceive. Of course, at times, one will lead to the other, but that is not the fault of the car, it's the owner. People are the only variable in the equation.

            NCRS becomes involved indirectly because people enter their cars to acquire certificates in order to boost value. Again these "people" are at fault, not NCRS, the cars, or the honest restorers, etc. It does become confusing if someone takes a base model and enters it in an event as an L88. Should NCRS judge on what this "particular" car was as it came from the factory, or whether the car should be judged as it appears? For Bowtie, it obviously has to be the former. But what about Top Flight? Perhaps the answer should be the addition of another class of judging, as demonstrated below:

            Original Car = Bowtie
            Restored Car = Top Flight
            Reproduction Car = ??????

            Just for clarification, the difference between a "Restored" car and a "Reproduction" car is that a "restored" car is, for example, an original L71, with NOM, etc, and entered as an L71. The "reproduction" car would be a base model car, entered as anthing other than a base model. For example, a 327/300 entered as an L88.

            Comment

            • Mark #28455

              #7
              so what's the deduction for a "restoration motor" *NM*

              Comment

              • Michael H.
                Expired
                • January 29, 2008
                • 7477

                #8
                Re: My 2 cents.

                Kevin,

                It's probably my fault for not being clear on what Mike and I were discussing but we were on the subject of restamped blocks, not trim tags. That's why I thought it best to start a new post instead of continuing with the original that was about trim tags. I should have mentioned that in my first post here.

                I don't remember who said "all restorations are fake" but it wasn't me.

                Michael

                Comment

                • Kevin Whiteley

                  #9
                  Re: My 2 cents.

                  Michael,

                  The original post was a bit confusing, and I was equally unclear. In one paragraph, I was opining on the green/yellow trim tag problem that was presented in the original post. It didn't have anything to do with the following paragraphs.

                  The statement "all restorations are fake" was a paraphrase on the title of the recent post "...they are all fake". I was also unclear. I didn't mean to disparage (sp?) anyone.

                  Now, onto engine restamping. I personally wouldn't do it for two reasons. One, I don't see a need, because I probably won't have my car judged. Two, even if I did have it judged, I would disclose that the engine is not original. So, to me, why would I waste the expense of restamping when I would disclose its non-originality anyway. The above two are my opinion of what I would do.

                  If someone wants to restamp their engine block, I still think it would fall into the previously mentioned "restored" or "reproduction (taken liberally)" categories. These categories would only be relevant in the small world of NCRS (or similar) judging, though. So, if someone restamps the block and enters its in a judging event (either category, except Bowtie), there is no deceit, because the categories themselves indicate that the car as a whole is not original. I concede, that it is possible that a car needs restoration, etc and the original engine is in place and intact. I don't pretend to think there aren't any flaws in my reasoning.

                  I don't know if that addresses the issue you had in mind, but it's a start.

                  Comment

                  • Michael H.
                    Expired
                    • January 29, 2008
                    • 7477

                    #10
                    Re: My 2 cents.

                    Thanks Kevin. It's exactly what I had in mind when I posed the original question. I was just curious about the response that would be submitted by members. Since I have vehicles on both sides of the fence in this issue, I can definitely understand the thinking of each owner. The owner of an original engine car would want to be in a different category than an owner that has a restoration engine.

                    I also wondered if there was more or less importance placed on the correct original block today than there was five or ten years ago. Is it becomming more important or less important? Are car prices still much different or have they closed the gap between original/restored engine cars?

                    Michael

                    Comment

                    • Mike Cobine

                      #11
                      Re: My 2 cents.

                      By definition in Websters and paraphrased here, fake is to manipulate, alter, or change to appear as genuine. Restore is to renew or return to an original state. Fraud is the intentional deception designed to profit the one doing the fraud or to cost the victim (separate them from something of value).

                      Fake may be viewed by some as bad, but in definition, it isn't good or bad. It just isn't genuine.

                      Restoration is viewed as good, because it renews, but by renewing, it is not original, which is counter to another definition of restore as "returning to an original condition". Let's face it, the cars are 30, 40, 50 years old. Restore all you want, they are still that old and not one day old. Or use all new parts and they are no longer original parts, so they are not original.

                      We aren't restoring painting or scultures, but mechanical devices, and by replacing parts, they are fakes - old cars manipulated or altered to look new.

                      Fraud. We are back to value. I want to avoid value since NCRS is not about setting value.

                      On to your three classes. In NCRS, we don't deal with Reproduction cars. These could also be referred to as clones. Or the "if I could order one now, I'd order ..." cars.

                      This third group is quite visible in other car hobbies, but not in Corvette restoration. Who hasn't seen a Z28 clone or a Yenko clone or a Cobra clone or a Shelby clone or a Hemi Cuda clone or whatever at various large shows? And we have actually seen them at Bloomington and NCRS events, but sometimes we didn't know it and sometimes they were just on the sidelines.

                      Clones, reproductions, and such do not fit the philosophy of NCRS. "Preservation, restoration and history of Corvette." A clone is none of those. It is simply a wish, it is something that could have been, but it isn't.

                      Comment

                      • Mike Cobine

                        #12
                        It isn't competition.

                        I think that to be in a different category implies there is competition. Judging is not about competition, unless the guys in your chapter have a bet on who makes Top Flight first.

                        Each car is alone against itself and the rulebook (Judging Manual). So if you have an original engine, I have a unstamped block that I stamped, and Fred has a block he used a Craftsman 7 inch grinder on and stamped with JC Whitney stamps, it doesn't matter. We are not competing. If I get 75 points on something, it does not affect in any way the points you get on that same area.

                        The problem I think arises in that too many think of this as competition, like the car shows with trophies for Best of Show, Best in Class, etc. That is what is drummed into our heads, and how many think, if only subconsciously.

                        There could be all 50 cars get Top Flight on a weekend. There could be no cars get a Flight award on a weekend. It all depends strictly on each individual car.

                        As to prices on original and NOM cars? It is really hard to say, since virtually every car out there is listed as "matching numbers" or "all original" by sellers who have no clue as to what those terms mean.

                        And while some cars listed as NOM are really nice, very few cars listed as NOM are in the same condition throughout as those listed as restored and "matching nubmers". So we are comparing apples and oranges.

                        The reality is that many of those "matching numbers" cars really are NOM and yet the selling prices are not too far off from those that are original engines.

                        Comment

                        • Kevin Whiteley

                          #13
                          Original vs. Restored

                          Michael,

                          I would think that the original car and restored cars MUST be in different categories, but I don't think those categories should prejudice one car over another. An original car is an original car and should be judged according to the very "original" standards. What those "original" standards are, I cannot say with precision. A restored car should also be judged accordingly. I don't think it would be fair to judge the restored car to the original car standards because some items simply aren't available in reproduction. So the restored car should be judged against a "theoretical" standard. Sometimes I'm at a loss for perfect words, but let me illustrate.

                          The numerous and recent posts on radiator caps is helpful. An original cars radiator cap should be judged against the original radiator cap. If the original car has a "reproduction" cap, then a deduct should be taken. But a restored car's radiator cap should be judged as having a "reproduction" cap. So, if the restored car has an original or repo cap, no deduct. A deduct should be taken if the cap is completely different (font, size, type, etc) than what was originally on the car.

                          I do think more importance is place on original factory-installed engines today than 5 to 10 years ago, simply because as things get older, parts break, so a car with an original engine is more of a rarity as time goes by. In 1977, Stars Wars action figures were cheap and in every toy store. Today, they aren't easy to find and aren't cheap if you do. I can't really say if they are becoming more or less important, because each individual is different.

                          As far as closing the gap, it also depends. I think a 68 327/300 hp base model with the original factory-installed motor wouldn't necessarily cost more than a restored 68 427/435hp without the original motor.

                          Comment

                          • Mark #28455

                            #14
                            reality check

                            The whole engine thing has taken on a life of its own. We have members of the NCRS who appear to have devoted their entire lives to "busting" those broach marks.
                            How many 1957 Corvettes still have their "original" interiors? Get real, they're almost 50 years old! I bet most are from a repro supplier. So does anyone get a massive points deduction? Does any judge break out a magnifying loupe to check the exact distance between the stitches on the underside of the seat to "prove" it's a fake?
                            The philosophy of the NCRS was to promote restoration of cars - that's where the "R" comes from. There are classes to "teach" us how to "correctly" restore our cars and the Corvette Restorer is full of similar articles. Why do we even CARE if a restamped motor is used to correctly restore a car? If the NCRS would accept that restoring a car with a correct but restamped engine were ok, there wouldn't be such an effort to hide it! - everyone brags about their new interior!
                            Why not just help people get their broach marks correct and help get the correct stamping fonts and spacings? That's how people restore everything else in this world (look at the recent posts on radiator caps). So have we stooped "so low" as to help Mr. DeWitt flood the Corvette market with "forgeries" of original caps? Why the double standard? I personally would be very greatful for a "dead on correct" radiator cap at a reasonable price. True devotees would never keep a secret that prevents a beautiful car from reaching it's former glory just so they could brag about their own original motor.

                            Comment

                            • John M.
                              Expired
                              • January 1, 1999
                              • 1553

                              #15
                              Re: reality check

                              Mark,
                              Your point is very valid in my opinion. Once the parameters are well understood as to what makes a stamp appear incorrect to a judge, then the pad restrorers will adjust to make their pads appear correct. We are a group of intelligent, highly motivated guys who will go to great lengths to assure that our cars appear as original. We have seen this happen time and time again in all areas of our cars from radiator caps to interiors. Trim tags are another issue that stirs people up. You can take an original trim tag and build a complete car around it, but changing an interior color to your preference and changing the trim tag to match, is an unforgivable sin in some people's eyes. I have heard the comment that it will be impossible to create a trim tag that will pass scrutiny with all we now know about how a trim tag should look. I would submit that, because of all the effort that has been invested in trim tags, we now have a road map on how to produce a perfect trim tag. To say that we can not replicate a part that was produced 40 years ago on sloppy, production equipment, is ridiclous. We have people who can now make perfect copies of $20 dollar bills, yet we say we can not produce a metal tag made 40 years ago!
                              It will just take someone who is motivated to produce the perfect tag.
                              I am glad that I build C1 cars, and do not have to worry about this silliness with trim tags. The whole purpose of flight judging is to judge whether a part APPEARS to be correct. I have heard many of us exclaim gleefully, that once the GM documentation is released, there will be many a 67 big block that will not pass flight judging. I would hope that this never happens since once we start heading down the "must be original" versus the "must appear original" road, than it will be hard to turn back. Bowtie is for original cars, and flight judging is for restored cars. I, like you, see NO distinction between a restamped, correct block and a set of reproduction seat covers, or carpet, or paint, or whatever!

                              Regards, John McGraw

                              Comment

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