Gentleman...I have a 65 Fuelly with side exhaust. Car has been frame-off restored and is supposedly a #matching car. I purchased this car from Pro-team as such. I have been told by a restorer that if there are no known fuellys(65) that came with side exhaust. I have a copy of a window sticker(repro) that shows it as an option for this car and I know these can be reproduced to show any option you want. Can you advise me how many 65 fuellys were built with side exhaust(if numbers are available)or how I can tell if this car really came with them.Serial # if it helps is 194375S116529. Thank you
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris,
We can tell you how many fi's were built, and how many side pipe cars were built, but not how many fi's had side pipes. There are many differances between the two systems, more than we have room to discuss on this forum. I wish there was a simple question you could ask and get a definatve answer "yes" or "no", but that is not the case. Dealing only with the FI system, try to determine the following; is the block stamped correctly for a '65 fuel car? Right side exhaust manifold should not have a hole for choke heat. (Any sign of tampering?) Is cross brace on rad. support "factory" or over the counter replacement? What trans is in the car? Should be M-21(close Ratio). Any sign of filled holes in front fenders where "crossed flags" could have been removed? Check inside of fenders also. Does engine serial number and fi unit number fall fairley close to what is shown in Nolen Adams book? What "red line" is the tach? What oil pressure gage is in car? These and many other question need to be answered to give a better INDICATION of how your car left the factory. If you have an NCRS chapter near you, get in touch with them, they will be glad to help you. If you want to continue off line, e-mail me at address above. Good luck, Bill -
Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris,
We can tell you how many fi's were built, and how many side pipe cars were built, but not how many fi's had side pipes. There are many differances between the two systems, more than we have room to discuss on this forum. I wish there was a simple question you could ask and get a definatve answer "yes" or "no", but that is not the case. Dealing only with the FI system, try to determine the following; is the block stamped correctly for a '65 fuel car? Right side exhaust manifold should not have a hole for choke heat. (Any sign of tampering?) Is cross brace on rad. support "factory" or over the counter replacement? What trans is in the car? Should be M-21(close Ratio). Any sign of filled holes in front fenders where "crossed flags" could have been removed? Check inside of fenders also. Does engine serial number and fi unit number fall fairley close to what is shown in Nolen Adams book? What "red line" is the tach? What oil pressure gage is in car? These and many other question need to be answered to give a better INDICATION of how your car left the factory. If you have an NCRS chapter near you, get in touch with them, they will be glad to help you. If you want to continue off line, e-mail me at address above. Good luck, BillComment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris, although I don't know that I've seen any documentation that proves or disproves your sidepipe's originality, one good thing in your favor is that your serial number is past the midpoint of the model year, so at least the car was built during the period when sidepipes were available. The '65 Judging guide has information on some of the things to look for to verify a sidepipe car, they include A: Absence of the exhaust pipe support at the rear trans mount B: untapped holes in the frame crossmember, due to not hasving the exhaust pipe grounds installed. C: an original GM unfilled smooth rear exhaust panel. D: No weatherstrip on the small triangular splash pans closing out the frame to front fender area. (and no sign of holes for staples, nor filled holes for staples.) E: The fiberglas leg at the rear of the rocker area is notched or cutoff for exhaust pipe clearance on a sidepipe car.
If all of these are in place correctly, you still don't have absolute proof, but at least you will have checked the obvious. The next step would be an owners search to see if the History of the car can be traced to an owner who could verify originality (or lack of). What background did Pro-Team give you on the car. If it's good, they will usually share it .Comment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris, although I don't know that I've seen any documentation that proves or disproves your sidepipe's originality, one good thing in your favor is that your serial number is past the midpoint of the model year, so at least the car was built during the period when sidepipes were available. The '65 Judging guide has information on some of the things to look for to verify a sidepipe car, they include A: Absence of the exhaust pipe support at the rear trans mount B: untapped holes in the frame crossmember, due to not hasving the exhaust pipe grounds installed. C: an original GM unfilled smooth rear exhaust panel. D: No weatherstrip on the small triangular splash pans closing out the frame to front fender area. (and no sign of holes for staples, nor filled holes for staples.) E: The fiberglas leg at the rear of the rocker area is notched or cutoff for exhaust pipe clearance on a sidepipe car.
If all of these are in place correctly, you still don't have absolute proof, but at least you will have checked the obvious. The next step would be an owners search to see if the History of the car can be traced to an owner who could verify originality (or lack of). What background did Pro-Team give you on the car. If it's good, they will usually share it .Comment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris:
1965 fuel cars were built with side mounted exhaust. The earliest example I know of has a final assembly date of 2/23/65. A photo copy of the original window sticker is in my collection. The VIN is 194675S1105XX. In total 287 small blocks were assembled with "N14" side mounted exhaust. It was not available with the base engine - BUT - was available with L75/L76/L79 and L84.
In addition to the small block build, 472 L78/396 cars were also built with side mounted exhaust.
Al GrenningComment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
Chris:
1965 fuel cars were built with side mounted exhaust. The earliest example I know of has a final assembly date of 2/23/65. A photo copy of the original window sticker is in my collection. The VIN is 194675S1105XX. In total 287 small blocks were assembled with "N14" side mounted exhaust. It was not available with the base engine - BUT - was available with L75/L76/L79 and L84.
In addition to the small block build, 472 L78/396 cars were also built with side mounted exhaust.
Al GrenningComment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
I would agree with all that the two Bills and Al said, with the possible exception of Bill Clupper's "D" about the weatherstrip. Upon close examination, the change occurs sometime (AIM drawing) in June 1965 and is not a part of the 1965 AIM, but it is a part of the 1966 AIM.Comment
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Re: 65 Fuelly with side exhaust
I would agree with all that the two Bills and Al said, with the possible exception of Bill Clupper's "D" about the weatherstrip. Upon close examination, the change occurs sometime (AIM drawing) in June 1965 and is not a part of the 1965 AIM, but it is a part of the 1966 AIM.Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
What about these brackets with N-14 option ? I had always thought they were cut off where they project below the door sill part of the bird-cage. However the AIM ('65 version) makes no reference to this modification. Roger Gibson's RESTORER article (Winter '93) says these brackets are omitted with N-14. I take this to possibly mean that the birdcage was tagged for this option before the brackets were welded on. Is this the case ? My late '65 had this option "added" in the early '80's, and it appears that the brackets touch the exhaust pipes. A slight bend inward would be all that's required to correct the contact; I don't think their removal at the factory is necessary. What's the current line on this ?Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
What about these brackets with N-14 option ? I had always thought they were cut off where they project below the door sill part of the bird-cage. However the AIM ('65 version) makes no reference to this modification. Roger Gibson's RESTORER article (Winter '93) says these brackets are omitted with N-14. I take this to possibly mean that the birdcage was tagged for this option before the brackets were welded on. Is this the case ? My late '65 had this option "added" in the early '80's, and it appears that the brackets touch the exhaust pipes. A slight bend inward would be all that's required to correct the contact; I don't think their removal at the factory is necessary. What's the current line on this ?Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
(Oops) I forgot, those were not welded onto a true s/p car. there should be no evidence of them.Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
(Oops) I forgot, those were not welded onto a true s/p car. there should be no evidence of them.Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
Bill is correct. I've had both types of cars. Honest factory side exhaust without evidence of spot welded brackets on my 67 and "falsies" with brackets still in tact on my former 66. Tom #24014Comment
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Re: Side Exhaust Body Sill Moulding Brackets
Bill is correct. I've had both types of cars. Honest factory side exhaust without evidence of spot welded brackets on my 67 and "falsies" with brackets still in tact on my former 66. Tom #24014Comment
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