Reinspection Of Honored Cars

[Joe C.]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

Roy:

Quote:

"Are you saying that an original engined vehicle should get no more credit than a restamped and/or altered horsepower vehicle? (the reason for the and/or is once stampped how do you know)"
" Do you feel that an original trim tagged vehicle should get no more credit than a reproduction tagged vehicle?"

I am loyal to the NCRS. Please, read my profile.....I sincerely mean every word of it. I am not in it for the money, just the principle.

We now have the technology, and know how, to detect a reproduction trim tag. We also have the technology to examine the broach marks of an engine stamp pad, count the lines per inch, and determine whether or not it is original.

To answer your questions:
NO-an original trim tagged vehicle should NOT be in the same judging class as a "correctly configured" reproduction. NO-a car with the original engine should NOT be in the same judging class as a car with a restoration engine block, with "matching numbers" and "correctly configured and broached" stamp pad.

Because the rules have recently been changed, thanks to Mister Grenning, I believe that the time has now come to re-level the playing field. We must re-evaluate all those Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland cars that were "certified" before Mister Grenning showed us the way. An NCRS Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland award means a lot to most Corvette lovers, and since the NCRS is the premiere Corvette authority, then we owe it to the marque to be fair and balanced in our judgements. I am sorry to say, that Mr. Grenning's most recent findings will make some people unhappy, but we must remember that, that is what the NCRS stands for........preservation and authenticity.

Now, I have said my piece. I will still be available, here, to help anybody that is willing to take my advice. I know that there will be many that have a vested interest, and will attack me for what I have said. Remember what the founding principles were all about in 1974. We must keep our doors open to new members, otherwise we will be relegated to the dustbin of history. We owe it to ourselves, our beloved Corvettes, and our legacy, to accept and embrace change.

For any and all of my brother and sister NCRS members who own award winning automobiles. Get out your monoculars, and study your stamp pad. Study your trim tags. Then, armed with the latest knowledge, do what is right as you see it. Then you will truly be upholding the premise of the NCRS.

[Roy B.]

Re:Geeeeeee wizzzzzzzzz

For days NOW I reeeeeeeed all these arguments over and over , people attacking each other. Judging this , judging that, what about this , your wrong , I'm right. And this is not just now , it's been going on for years. Well I think I have a pretty nice Corvette.( see my profile). I'm sorry , but to many others feel like I do and many of us have been in NCRS from the beginning (Has any one noticed that fewer low # members show up any more or post on this board) many have decided to keep our vetts out of judging ( and why). But I do in joy NCRS and the people I meet . I'v stayed away from NCRS for some 12 years , my life made a few turns, but I'm starting or trying to get involved again. So I have decided to reach no higher award then the SPORTSMAN.

[Joe C.]

Re:Geeeeeee wizzzzzzzzz

Roy:

She is really purty. Please, stay involved. We need the founding fathers who are the "salt of the earth" in this organization.

[Todd H 26112]

Dennis Clark doesn't agree...

Now hold on a second there...

"Standards have changed, and will continue to change from now until the end of time."

Dennis Clark told us otherwise - he said 'nothing has changed since 1974' - and initially my reaction was 'huh?' but since then well - you can see for yourself. And Mr. Roy Sinor said Dennis Clark was speaking to standards specifically.

So who's right? Dennis or John?

[Roy S.]

Re: Yes

NCRS does not control or have any tangible effect in my opinion on the on the investment business. NCRS judges cars to a standard we do not judge one car against the other. The fact that NCRS is the only organization that publishes anything that resembles a Technical Information Guide and Judging Manual, Corvette Specification Guides, etc., has nothing to do with the investment business. If someone chooses to place monetary value on an NCRS award they choose to do so with there own knowledge and intuitiveness not because of NCRS, read the disclaimer on the back of the certificate.
I have stated many times the engine pad is an 88 point deduction, if the owner drives the car 200 miles to the meet he gets 90 points. Now, given the choice of loosing 88 points for an engine pad, driving 200 miles to the event to recover those points or spending thousands of dollars to try and create an engine pad that NCRS does not detect which is the logical path, if you are a hobbyist?
I think NCRS has addressed this issue quite well and those that participate and understand the process have little or no problem with it, unless they got caught. If they lost 88 points, spent thousands of dollars trying not to and did not drive their car to the event, they may not be a hobbyist.

[Roy S.]

[Roy S.]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

Woa! Mark you sound a little touchy here. My position has not changed, our deductions have not changed, and stamping an engine is considered restoration by many. Never did I say that a restoration motor if detected would not receive a deduction in any write up. The point you need to realize is that a deduction if made is only 25 to 88 points max. That will not keep a car from scoring a Top flight or Duntov award and if you are pursuing a Top flight and drove 200 miles it would have made no difference in the final award. The judging records do not indicate a car has a stamped pad, where did you get that idea? NCRS does not keep the score sheets! We do record the net score, final score, award received, owners name, location of the event and serial number of the car. Some individual might remember a motor was stamped or even have pictures of it, not NCRS. My column you refer to specifically spelled out the difference in restoration and counterfeit, now you want to mix the two, NCRS has not. Flight judging is about restoration, a detected non original engine stamp is just like a detected reproduction part depending on the severity of the difference it ranges from 25 to 88 points, that is between 7% & 28% of the allocated points on the engine block. We deduct anywhere from 0 to 100% on reproduction parts depending on there correctness.

[Roy S.]

Re: Dennis Clark doesn't agree...

That is correct, Dennis does not agree, Roy does not agree and Bill Clupper does not agree,Mike McCagh does not agree, and I do not believe even John Waggoner agrees that the standard has changed, but he knows our system has evolved over 29 years. These people witnessed and participated in the evolution of this system. You continue to play a word game and it is not going to change a fact. The standard has not changed.

In Dennis's first reposne to you. "Really, nothing has changed since 1974, except our ability to do a more accurate job of judging."

He meant and most understood that the standard has not changed, our ability to do a more accurate job of judging has. That is no different than what John is saying above.

In 1974 there was no Technical Informantion Manual & judging Guide, the score sheet was one page. Today 29 years later the Technical Inforamtion Manual & Judging Guide for John's car is a sixth edition with update insert pages, the score sheets are 17 pages. The end result will be different. Knowledge has improved, education of the judges has improved, the system has advanced. The standard has not changed.

[Michael S.]

They are just old cars!

I really do not see what the big deal is? We in NCRS are all so damn old now that in 15 years most of us will be dead/dying and really won't care at that point about restamps/trim tags and top flights. The young people of today at that time will not care about our cars upon which we lavish SO much attention. They will eat, drink and sleep rice cars as they do now in their youth. Sound like each of us old farts 25 years ago! By the way, I'm only 44 and would be considered young by NCRS standards but have had Corvettes since 16 years of age.

"Its all about the Money"! If my car is NOT a restamp, then it's worth more than your restamp motor car. That's what we are REALLY discussing!

"Big Al" and his information has turned the Corvette world upside down making it MUCH easier to spot the fake. Is the fake a bad car? Probably not. Is is as nice as the real car? Probably is. So it has to be "All about the Money"!

Isn't interesting how real daily life also mirrors our hobbies.

Mike Strinich
#11202

[Rob M.]

Re: They are just old cars!

As a junior Corvette owner (only 36) and not living in the States (The Netherlands) I wonder if owning a Vette is not all about a hobby, triing to preserve a piece of automotiv history within the limit of our budget.

I must admit that I'm unfortunately not owning an original engine (my '59 has a replaced by a Camero 1982), shifter and rear axe I'm still very proud when I drive around my piece of American history and receive compliments from whoever I meet.

A price or award is a nice recognition of our countless hours of work we put in preservate our dearest automobile but at the end its all about our love of this beautifully designed car... The real recognition should go out to the designers/workers of the Corvette company. Thanks to you for this beauty !!!

In the meanwhile we will take the opportunity to love driving and preserving it !!!

Rob Musquetier
The Netherlands




the 1959 restauration project

[Roy B.]

Re: They are just old cars!

Your Corvette was the reason I started SACE, just to in-joy having a Corvette. And you do have a great looking Corvette.

[Mark Milner]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

"Never did I say that a restoration motor if detected would not receive a deduction in any write up. "

You don't have to, the TM&JG says that in section 2.4 about reproduction items. If a motor is reproduced then it should be judged no differently than other reproduced items such as emblems, light bezels, seat covers, and dash pads.

"The point you need to realize is that a deduction if made is only 25 to 88 points max."

That is not what you have said, you have said that if detected, it loses all 88 points. It has been said that a car is better off with NO serial number stamped than to have one stamped that may be judged unoriginal because it then loses all 88 points. Not once has anyone said, "well, it looks funny here, so it may get only 25 points deducted."

Were they subject to the same level of detection that an emblem, a taillight housing, or a seat cover was, there would be no problem. Instead, they are subject to 10x or 20x magnification. Under the same scrutiny, carpets, paint, seat covers, and such would all receive hefty deductions.

"The judging records do not indicate a car has a stamped pad, where did you get that idea?"

In your column. In one article, you mention keeping records of all that are found with sidepipes on a non-sidepipe car, FI on a non-FI car, and engines that have been restamped and that they should always receive that deduction until the offending item has been removed.

In the last Corvette Restorer, you specifically went back to records on the gentleman's Corvette in question to point out deductions in previous meets.

You have stated as others that original engines should receive more points than reproduction engines. Why? The TM&JG doesn't say that.

If it were about originality, such as Bow Tie or Survivor judging, I would agree with you. View them to 50x if needed, and blacklist the fakes.

If it is about restoration, then I disagree, since NCRS went that path years ago and now there isn't much turning back. Those that followed the rules in good faith a few years back are now subject to penalty.

I believe they get more simply because this is a way to show that an original is worth more. Worth more points. The rest of the world equates more point s to more dollars, even if you do not. However, any car you judge higher does reap the benefit of having their car worth more in the eyes of the world and the market place, even if NCRS screams until they are blue it doesn't mean that.

And they wouldn't protest so much if they didn't know that the world equates higher NCRS points to higher market value.

I agree with Mike Strinich about the money.

[Rob M.]

Re: They are just old cars!

What is SACE ?

[Roy S.]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

Mark, I do not deal well with thesis type statements and unlike other involved in this discussion do have a life and a job other than babysitting a discussion board, I would prefer to answer one question at a time. I also would prefer to answer them via email, fax, telephone or USPS mail.

Engine pads, if a deviation is detected a deduction is taken. With original or original appearing broach marks you will keep 38 points. With an original or original appearing machine code you will keep 25 points period. With an original or original appearing serial number you will keep 25 points period. An early car with no VIN derivative has 50 points assigned to the machine code. Any combination of the above will result in different numbers. There are 88 assigned to the pad, years ago it was all or nothing, today it can be any combination of the three. If nothing is detected nothing is deducted, just as if an emblem is judged as original and nothing is detected nothing is deducted.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Dennis Clark doesn't agree...

Now let me get this straight Roy. I come here to learn and I see Dennis Clark telling us nothing has changed. Then I saw John Waggoner tell us the standards have changed. I simply note the confusion or conflict stated by others, not myself, on this same topic while seeking clarification and you accusingly opine that I "continue to play a word game"? Why can't I make a simple observation and ask for a clarification on judging standards without such baseless off-topic accusations from you Roy?

To Mr. John Waggoner, Administrator for ncrs.org: How is Mr. Sinor's accusation that 'I' "continue to play word games" within either the spirit and the letter of the rules for posting here? Is making such an accusation in good taste? Is it constructive? Does such an accusation create an atmosphere of good will and learning about a hobby of restoring, judging and enjoying our Corvettes?

All I did was point out an apparent contradiction by two different NCRS members, yourself and Dennis Clark and Roy Sinor took it upon himself to level this public accusation at me on this NCRS TECHNICAL DISCUSSION BOARD. For all I know maybe yourself or Dennis Clark made a simple error in selection of words as we all do on occasion. But I find Mr. Sinor's accusation to be unsubstantiated, in poor taste and certainly not within the spirit or letter of this forum.