Reinspection Of Honored Cars

[Joe C.]

"my interputation of these posts is, is it fair for members who had their cars judged before the introduction of products like the scope to check things,like the stamp pad, to be able to get away with things you can not get away with now to get a top award. i know nothing about judging and i could be all wet,but if the methods have improved all the previous awards should be subject to rejudging every so often".

This quote was posted by a familiar, and very knowledgeable member of the NCRS.....a frequent contributor to this forum.

Shouldn't our cars be subject to periodic reinspection as technology moves forward. After all, we have just experienced a see change, thanks to the insight of Mr. Grenning, which disqualifies many fastidiously prepared cars from Top Flite status. This begs the question: "How many honored cars would now be disqualified based on the findings of Mr. Grenning." Is this fair? More to the heart of the matter, if our organization truly values authenticity over monetary value, then if we are all the purists that we profess to be, then we should require periodic recertification of our cars.

[Brian McHale]

Re: Reinspection Of Honored Cars

That's crazy. Many of these cars change status before they are parked for the night. The award is for that car on that day.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Reinspection Of Honored Cars

wow, that is very interesting,i though this had something to do with "HONOR",adherence to principles considered right,integrity

[John W.]

Re: Re-inspection Of Honored Cars

Two things come to mind that argue against that premise. One stands out most obviously and needs to be shouted.

NCRS Judging in no way Certifies anything!

Anyone attempting to value a car based on previous judging needs to look very carefully at judging dates. Don't take the judging sheets at face value, and carefully inspect the car to see if it is still in the condition that it was when last judged.

Standards have changed, and will continue to change from now until the end of time. Cars change and will continue to change from now until the end of time. I still have the judging sheets on my '62 from the 1974 meet in St. Louis. Want to buy it based on those sheets?

Noland Adams Book Corvette Restoration Vol. 1 should be recalled. There is a picture of the engine in my car as an example of what factory should look like. That was taken when the car had a 307 in it.

History is history, and the NCRS does not certify any cars!

John

[Rick A.]

Re: Reinspection Of Honored Cars

you mention findings of Al Grenning - where are these posted? are they available for public viewing? first I have heard of anything

[Jerry G.]

Let's put some things in perspective

I have been scaning the recent posts regarding engine pads. All I can say is "Good Grief". We are letting technology carry us to a place where most members probablly don't want to go. These are old cars. Most of the parts have been redone, refurbished and retstored. We do this as a hobby. We use "the way it came from the factory" as a standard. As an example,We all know that the paint on most cars is not the exact actual paint that was applied by the factory paint but a reasonabley close cosmetic copy. It's a repaint.
Not all technology is appropriate to use in a hobby judging event. I'm sure I could do an analysis with a gas chromatograph on a chip of paint and determine it's not original. We instead have chosen to use a visual standard. ie if it looks correct then it gets credit. In my opinion we should employ the same standard to engine pads. If it looks correct then give credit. Using the technology and making a secret library of data is not about honoring the "way they looked when they came from St Louis" It about money and value. If this is important to an individual I'm sure that Al could sell a certification service for those that want or need it. This is a hobby, let's simplify this a little and get back to having fun. Just one mans opinion. Jerry

[Donald M.]

And The Beat Goes On......

and on! I sense another long thread coming this way!

[Joe C.]

Re: Reinspection Of Honored Cars

Rick:

The findings are not, as far as I know, posted anywhere. Mr. Grenning has an extensive library of photographs of actual engine pads. He also teaches the seminar on midyear trim tags. I will furnish contact information if you wish.

[Roy S.]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

Are you saying that an original engined vehicle should get no more credit than a restamped and/or altered horsepower vehicle? (the reason for the and/or is once stampped how do you know)

Do you feel that an original trim tagged vehicle should get no more credit than a reproduction tagged vehicle?

[Chuck S.]

Re: Reinspection Of Honored Cars

Clem, what Brian says is true...hard-to-find parts are often "borrowed" for judging, and are removed for return or sold soon thereafter. This doesn't bother me too much; these cars belong to the individuals and they can do what they want with them. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but the Corvette world is populated by the same people that are in the larger world...shouldn't we expect to see some examples of poor character, lack of integrity, etc.?

Anyway, it's hard for me to believe that you could borrow enough parts to be the deciding factor; maybe you could improve your score slightly. The judges can only judge what they see on the car on that day, and the award must be seen as a perishable quantity. The more time passes, the less likely the car will maintain it's flight level status.

When someone selling a car says "it's a NCRS Top Flight car", I am always skeptical..."Yeah, right. You show me the car, and I'll decide if it's a Top Flight car or not." More likely than not, sellers making those claims without stating when/where have something to hide.

This is a different concern than what you expressed originally. As Mike McCagh said, the judging quality bar has been raised, not so much by the technology available to see the details, but from more knowledgeable judges LOOKING for the details...in fact, the body of knowledge grows every year as a result of more and better observations on cars being restored.

Should honored cars be reinspected? Even if they were judged to a more relaxed judging expectation, the standards existing at the time were met. In my opinion, they should be "grandfathered"; just because the law changes, we don't go back and make it retroactive for prior acts.

Is today's Duntov car closer to the factory original standard than one 15 years ago? I don't know, but if knowing there is a difference is to fix value, forget NCRS awards, you had better know about the subject. JMHO.

[Joe C.]

Addendum

I have been advised, that the author of the quote in my original post, is not an NCRS member, although a very frequent contributor here. I am sorry for the misstatement.

[Jerry G.]

Yes

let's get the hobby and the investment business separated.

[Clem Z.]

roy i need you to explain the difference

if you would be so kind as to,between using borrowed parts to get a award and making a engine block stamping correct to meet the judging standards? it seems to me that the person that had a restamped block went to a lot more trouble and expense to meet the judging standard than a person that just borrowed a part.

[Mark Milner]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

How many "original" engines are truly original inside and not "altered"?

How many are running original bore, high compression and actually driving these cars? Still with the original gaskets? Never been rebuilt? Unless the car has low miles, almost all that are rebuilt have an overbore, if only .020 inch. No Chevy engine came with a .020 over piston from the factory.

The restamped or stamped pad has the appearance of being factory, just as much as the .030 over bore, the Al Knoch seat covers, or the reproduction tires. None are original, but they look it. Under a microscope, they all fall apart. Except you don't subject anything to the microscope but the engine pad.

On this very board, several tell about the L79 cam and the L82 cam in place of the 097 and the 30-30 cams. Who knows what cam and other parts are inside. Yet you allow credit because you can't see easily. There are ways to tell if you wanted to.

Five years ago, you said stamping an engine to match a car was restoration. Now you want to penalize those that did as counterfeiting.

If you are going to keep the standard, you first need to keep it consistent year after year, and not flip flop as the pressure comes on. If you want to give more credit to an original engine over one someone painstakingly restored to look exactly like the original, then you need to do the same in all areas.

Personally, I think the scabby original paint and crappy seat covers in the Bloomington Gold Survivor series look like garbage, but they are original. Terrific for Survivor or Bow Tie judging, or rather learning, but terrible for restoration judging.

That is what you have to determine - is Flight Judging about restoration or about keeping it original? I thought Flight was about restoring and Bow Tie was about originality.

Now if you can prove they are creating a vehicle that didn't exist (stamping a 300 hp in an original 250 hp car or making a blue interior in a STD interior car) then they should be deducted the points as that is not restoration. But to simply deduct because the pad is stamped or restamped or the trim plate replaced is contrary to the section about no deductions for reproduction parts.

If you can't get an original or an NOS seat cover, you go with an Al Knoch and no one throws all your points out. If your original engine was decked and you restamp it, then all your points go out the window EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE ORIGINAL ONE! But throw out the original and drop in someone else's engine with the right dates and codes and get partial credit.

And worse, if you restored your car in '98 and followed Roy Sinor's column in Corvette Restorer by stamping the correct date and serial to "RESTORE" it, now five years later you are branded as a fraud and a counterfeiter for having stamped an engine!

Five years ago a car could be worth $40,000 with NCRS' blessing of a correct engine. Today, that car is cursed and blacklisted on NCRS judging records as to having a restamped pad.

And we haven't addressed engines restamped long ago by dealers. Weren't dealers required to stamp the engine number information on replacement engines long ago because some states registered the car by ENGINE number instead of BODY number? I know articles claim that most didn't, but if they did, then NCRS will be deducting 88 points and branding a car a counterfeit for something a Chevy dealer did because Chevrolet told them to. Odds are the replacement is too late on dates and wrong nubmers, but I have known people to have engines blow in the first month. For them, the replacement motor could actually be older than the original which blew and as such could have correct numbers and dates.

[Joe C.]

Re: Let's put some things in perspective

Roy:

Quote:

"Are you saying that an original engined vehicle should get no more credit than a restamped and/or altered horsepower vehicle? (the reason for the and/or is once stampped how do you know)"
" Do you feel that an original trim tagged vehicle should get no more credit than a reproduction tagged vehicle?"

I am loyal to the NCRS. Please, read my profile.....I sincerely mean every word of it. I am not in it for the money, just the principle.

We now have the technology, and know how, to detect a reproduction trim tag. We also have the technology to examine the broach marks of an engine stamp pad, count the lines per inch, and determine whether or not it is original.

To answer your questions:
NO-an original trim tagged vehicle should NOT be in the same judging class as a "correctly configured" reproduction. NO-a car with the original engine should NOT be in the same judging class as a car with a restoration engine block, with "matching numbers" and "correctly configured and broached" stamp pad.

Because the rules have recently been changed, thanks to Mister Grenning, I believe that the time has now come to re-level the playing field. We must re-evaluate all those Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland cars that were "certified" before Mister Grenning showed us the way. An NCRS Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland award means a lot to most Corvette lovers, and since the NCRS is the premiere Corvette authority, then we owe it to the marque to be fair and balanced in our judgements. I am sorry to say, that Mr. Grenning's most recent findings will make some people unhappy, but we must remember that, that is what the NCRS stands for........preservation and authenticity.

Now, I have said my piece. I will still be available, here, to help anybody that is willing to take my advice. I know that there will be many that have a vested interest, and will attack me for what I have said. Remember what the founding principles were all about in 1974. We must keep our doors open to new members, otherwise we will be relegated to the dustbin of history. We owe it to ourselves, our beloved Corvettes, and our legacy, to accept and embrace change.

For any and all of my brother and sister NCRS members who own award winning automobiles. Get out your monoculars, and study your stamp pad. Study your trim tags. Then, armed with the latest knowledge, do what is right as you see it. Then you will truly be upholding the premise of the NCRS.