?s re PF-25 Reproductions

[Richard G.]

[Todd H 26112]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Rich I thought along those same lines myself that modern GM service replacement filters would net at least some latitude or points.

DO a search on oil filters - I posted another thread on that very topic maybe 3 or 4 weeks ago and got feedback on exactly what you are inquiring about.

In it I was surprised to learn this - but this was the impression I got from several BBS regulars who seem pretty knowledgeable on the subject of judging (my judging manual is at least one issue out of date):

In an early C3 (originally white PF-25 'AC' filter):
Current PF-454 - 0 points. (this is the current service replacement)
Modern blue PF-25 - 1 point. (recently out of production)
A 4-1/2" filter spray painted white - 2 points (maybe)
Aftermarket Reproduction - 4 or 5 points.
NOS original - full points presumably.

I was surprised to learn that in the case of items like filters, batteries, etc that modern GM or ACDelco stuff seem to be given little latitude these days. In the past this was not always the case if I recall. If you are not dealing with a correct repro or original - according to that thread - there is little incentive per NCRS to use GM service replacements anymore. I still do use a PF-454, Delco Freedom bat etc as my philosophy is to drive a car and have it judged AS IT WAS DRIVEN w/o swapping this or that but I could just as easily use a WalMart SuperTech filter for the same 0 points. Personally I would like to see NCRS give more latitude for GM service replacements especially for routine maintenance items and cars receiving mileage credits.

[Dave S.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

From quite a bit of experience on the judging field the judging of these PF-25 oil filters is all over the place. Some give full credit for reproductions, some think all 70-72 cars should have embossing on the bottom even though the JG says both embossed and unembossed are acceptable, and some feel the unembossed originals are acceptable for full credit. From my personal collection of PF-25's I believe there was a unique white embossed filter for 68, the BEST WAY.... white embossed filters were correct for 69 and possibly part of 70, and the unembossed white filters were used from 70 to 74 or possibly into 75. The various blue filters began in 1975.

[Jeffrey S.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Joe, Dave et al:
I have several white AC PF25's with AC logo made in Canada. These have Engllish and French writing on them. The silk screening is alo inverted from the NOS one I have. Do you know anything about these? When were they produced?
Thanks for any info you might have.
Jeff Salz

[Richard G.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Todd

I have to agree with you on this. Certain GM service replacement items should be considered by the NCRS when judging. As I always believed, preservation of these old cars should be considered at the top of the list and an oil filter is one of those items that should be considered. I would hate to hear a story of someone who was trying to get full points and used an old filter and killed the motor and yes, I agree that you have to make your own choices of what to take the hits on. I fully believe in the originality concept that the judging is based on overall. I think half of the fun in the restoration of these cars in making sure that each part is original to that car and hunting these parts down adds to the fun of the hobby.

On another note, does anyone have an opinion on the "new" style oil filter, the 454?

Rich

[Todd H 26112]

Edges: Fluting or Knurled or ?

Vs teh originals - how much if any do the modern PF-25s or Repros vary.

Based on what I can tell - it looks like the modern PF-25 as of '02 has a much 'softer' more subtle knurle to the end of the can and the orinal white ones seem a little 'sharper' or 'crisper' in how the edges of the cans were stamped.

Not sure how the repros fit in but if they are simply modern PF-25s then I guess they would be the same.

As for the very bottom of the can while some had AC embossed others simply had a smooth round dome (I think!). THe modern PF-25s have a small 'circle' formed in the ends of the can maybe the size of a quarter.

Also wasn't the 'lip' at the base of the can on originals unpainted bright metal?

[Todd H 26112]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Rich see the recent thread on tires - search for 'tires safety' in the current archive - if NCRS isn't all that concerned w/ tire safety by fully deducting for modern service replacements - I doubt they'll be concerned w/ items like filters.

The 454 is a shorter 25 w/ ADBV. See mine and other comments elsewhere in this thread on it. I think it's still plenty big for most any V8. SOme also use the PF35 now replaced by teh PF1218 - it's HUGE. (check clearance).

And if so inclined feel free to use filters from other makers like Wix, Purolator or CHampion Labs. SOme are still of the original PF-25 length while others have shortened to match the PF-454. Maybe some judge will give you a point on correct length? - worst case is it's teh same as a PF-454 on points making it a wash either way.

[Craig S.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Todd - actually, when an engine is cold and the oil is thick, it is not that uncommon for the bypass to open for a bit, so I have heard. The larger surface area filtration of the PF35 or 1218 would probably be less restrictive when cold, especially if a high volume pump is employed as they have higher flow at idle than the standard, and granted, much of the extra flow is being bypassed, there may be more oil flow through the filter in this case. Anyway, I use the PF35 size on my BB and SB chevy engines....Craig

[Craig S.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Todd - I agree, and it seems odd that they give full credit (or so I have heard) for brake hoses replaced since they are a safety item, yet, not tires. What's the difference? Both will kill you if bad when driving....Craig

[Todd H 26112]

"What's the difference?..."

Craig - we are left to conclude that tires, unlike brake hoses and battery cut-off switches, are NOT considered safety equipment by NCRS. You get maximum points for original ancient tires and you also get credit for miles driven - the more the better up to a point. NCRS commits this to writing and self-publishes this for public consumption. Further they publish their own designated 'service replacement' tire sizes that the tire manufacturers THEMSELVES will NOT validate or back up. Indeed some won't even install the tires designated by NCRS - wonder what they know? Apparently I'm informed NCRS can get away w/ such impunity because NCRS A) assumes that it's 20K membership is not so stupid as to put the two encouraged practices (ancient tires & driving) in action at the 'same' time and B) because of an idealistic belief that a release statement grants immunity. While it is clearly an ill adviced practice to drive around on ancient tires IMO - is it any smarter to make such an assumption that people won't do just that?

When I mentioned this apparent double standard w/ regard to tire safety in the past I received a lot of private agreement and interest and a lot of public heat on this very forum. It left me w/ the chilling impression that bullies intimidate others from voicing public support or concurring w/ a concept like this that dares question the double standards of the status quo - just a friendly warning for the backlash you (and once again I) will be in for...

What others have done is ship their ancient tires ahead or carry them in a 2nd chase vehicle or trailer and replace their safer more roadworthy tires upon mileage credit arrival w/ the ancient rubber just prior to judging. If one can jack up a car after it was driven and replace tires after driving it for mileage credit soley for the purposes of avoiding a full tire deduction - I don't see why one can't also replace brake hoses w/ correct ancient ones? I'm not sure what the limits are for performing deliberate modifications after arriving and claiming mileage credit - ostensibly it's free reign for whatever you and your crew can do subject to teh limits of time and loads of parts and tools and such you can haul with you or have available. This is perfectly within the rules as I understand them and probably common practice. But why limit oneself to swapping tires? I'm sure there are a lot more points inspired modifications that could be performed after arriving and claiming mileage credit. You get the mileage credit 'wholistically' even though parts of the vehicle never earned those miles being claimed.

Is performing deliberate post arrival modifications and swaps after arriving and achieving mileage credit in the spirit of what was originally intended by offering mileage credit and encouraging judged cars to be driven? I truly don't know - which is why I ask this - I simply wasn't around back then. I'd like to hear more on that specifically from some of the more senior membership that was actually hands on involved w/ framing this aspect of judging.

Then of course there's lone wolf schmucks like me that drive free and unencumbered. I don't recommend it however if you value points

[Gerard Q.]

A Picture is worth a Thousand Words

In this case 5 pictures I received from a fellow NCRS member when I raised the same questions. In each picture the original PF25 is on the left, repo on the right. With these you can really see the differences.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: A Picture is worth a Thousand Words

More like 5000 words - thanks Jerry!

I had noted the bright metal 'lip' at the base and lack of delineation in the knurled or fluted or whatever edges at the end of the can. What prevents that lip from 'rusting? Is it plated or something?

It sort of looks like a modern ACDelco PF-25 repaint but actually that base looks a bit like a Purolator too...

Yep - lots of telltale differences there! Thanks again,

[Don G.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

I wrote an article entitled "Oil Filter Study" that appeared in volume 28-number 2- fall 2001 of the "CORVETTE RESTORER" magazine that you may find of some interest. Although far from complete, it provides some information on C3 applications. With the interest created by the phase-out of the PF25, it may be time to update the report with additional information.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Don I just now went and immediately dug up the article. As soon as you mentioned it - it struck a cord of familiarity. Great article and thanks for the interesting insights. It explained the bright metal I was seeing on the bases of some of the early PF-25s.

The question of when the label got flipped over seemed to be left somewhat opened ended.

Beyond that - I'm sure there were also myriad subtle and major changes in the label applied over the years. For example, AC --> ACDelco occured sometime in early 90s I think. Duragard synthetic media was introduced by mid-90s I think and that term also started appearing on labels too (and still does).

One area of confusion for me after reading it though - the article states the blue bands did not continue all the way around though this is often the case w/ reproductions. However in teh apparent originals I've seen as well as the images vieweable by clicking on the URLs posted elsewhere in this thread - the originals seem to go all the way around continuously and it's the repros that have the 'breaks' in the blue bands - or did I misunderstand that part?

If I'm not mistaken the PF-25 ended it's life in COrvettes by 1992. So Corvettes may not have ever seen "Duragard" or "...Delco" in the labeling originally as far as the PF-25 goes on factory installed filters.

Anyway - thanks again for reminding us of this awesome article!

====

On another note I can't begin to recall how many times I wish I had an index for my boxes of Restorer magazines. How many times have questiosn been posed here that have been answered often in detail in a Restorer article? But I don't have a photographic memory or computerized index - Anybody have any idea why I bother to keep my Restorer editions in order

[Patrick H.]

Re: ?s re PF-25 Reproductions

Todd,

I keep the paper Restorer editions in order to make it easier to find when someone references an article.

I also have the Restorer on CD (available from the NCRS store) so that I can look up a word or subject withint seconds. In fact, I have the whole CD just loaded onto my hard drive so I don't even have to look for the CD to search.

Patrick