"Over " Restored???

[Bill B.]

Re: "Over " Restored???

Great Subject for thought and responses. I was seven when I saw my first 57 fuelie leave my bus stop every morning for school. I spent the next 40 years owning many drivers but always dreaming of "restoring" an old era solid axle. I am now 55 and have spent the last two and half years tinkering with my basket case 58--this is a rescue effort. My first ambition was to reconstruct her to be near perfect. Now I really know where the term "deep pockets" and "frustrated perfectionist" comes from. Over time my standards have been lowered and rightfully so to "authentic-looking of the era". To date I haven't met anybody who has seen her that usually knows what she is let alone if the block is correctly dated, stamped, painted or whatever! In fact, my guess is that most other 58 owners and judges cannot totally agree on some of the standards or unique items.

For whatever it is worth, my most significant accomplishment has been meeting many other folks (just like me) who have and are helping to "restore" my 58 to my standard and with no intent to pass her off as "original unmolested". It is the idea of "counterfeiting" on a restoration with the sole purpose of deceiving that upsets me. The term "over restored" should be banned within the NCRS community as that really is the purpose of restoring things. My question is: who is it that sets the standard of "over restoring". Whoever you are, what's the big deal.

[Everett Ogilvie]

Restored, Re-created, or Created

Long ago on this Board I jokingly proposed that a car was no longer "original" when 1/2 its mass had been replaced with new parts. If you find an original Corvette alternator bolt, and build a 1967 L88 around it, what do you have?

How about these definitions for a project once it is completed;
restoration = greater than 50% of the car's original parts are still there, re-creation = less than 50% of the car's original parts are still there, and Creation = you build a car with the options of your choice, from something that originally did not have those options.

How about Glacier Girl, the P-38 recovered from 200 feet down in the ice of Greenland? Many parts of this incredible and historic restoration had to be built (using modern materials and modern methods) because the original pieces were lost or destroyed. Is this a restoration, or a re-creation?

I am only half-heartedly suggesting the definitions above because I enjoy this debate, but those of you putting cars together out there may want to start weighing and summing up the parts you bolt onto your project, so your claim of Restored Original can be substantiated...

One post in this thread asked how many people at the typical car show would know or appreciate an original type paint job with some flaws? The answer is - very few. But who are you building the car for - them, or you? I maintain, restore, or preserve my cars for myself and no one else. I happen to be an originality freak (3 5-Star Bowtie cars), so over-restoration is something I frown on, but the next guy probably can't stand leaving the runs in when he paints his valve covers. Like Jack said, NCRS has a category for almost everyone, so we each can do what we are most interested in.

[Dennis A.]

Re: "Over " Restored???

Bill,

I like your response, I saw a vette that was trailered to a show in Palm Springs Ca. that was restored to the point that even the carburetors were coated to shine. The owner know that the car could never be judged, for it was "over" restored. Guess what? He enjoyed showing his car, I enjoyed the "vette" talk and even took a few pictures.

[G B.]

If you want praise from street people...

...DON'T drive a Corvette with original paint.

Most of the Great Unwashed think that an old Corvette with original paint is a junker. I know, because that's the reaction I get when I drive my original paint cars. Street people never admire the originality of these Corvettes. They usually comment that my cars "need painting", sometimes to my face.

I usually say something like this in response: "I guess you would rather view a shiny new painting of Elvis on velvet rather than the original Mona Lisa with cracks in the old oil paint. It's a matter of taste."

[Kevin T.]

Re: If you want praise from street people...

Having initiated the discussion on this topic, I guess I will chime in with my view. I do appreciate and admire a well-kept, original, unrestored/unmolested car if you are fortunate enough to find one, or were able to baby it (not drive it) all these years. And I certainly don't advocate things like chroming valve covers that weren't originally chromed, etc., or using cheap reproduction parts that vary from the original look. But I guess I don't understand things like trying to mimic inferior painting techniques of old (to achieve an orange peal finish?), or keeping a crappy paint job that has exceeded its useful life just because it is the original paint. I had to chuckle to myself the other day when I followed a thread whereby someone argued against repairing some loosened carpet on a potential bowtie candidate because the glue to be used would not be original. What's next, not changing the oil because it is not original from the factory either? I don't see why someone should be penalized because they took the time to do a better job of assembling a car than GM did 30-50 years ago and/or used modern techniques that are clearly better. To continue the classic artwork analogy used earlier, I recently saw some before and after pictures of the Sistene Chapel in the Vatican following its multi-million dollar cleaning and restoration. I would say that the viewing public was not cheated from having 300 years of soot removed and the vividness of the colors restored. That's just one man's opinion. Happy Holidays to all! - Kevin

[Tom H.]

Re: John's Point....

This is exactly the discussion I was hoping for. Lots of good ideas, viewpoints, experiences and outside approaches. I really appreciate a wonderfully crafted redo- for want of a better phrase- complete with all the correct pieces and even a spectacular paint job. I also appreciate cars with less than perfect paint, chassis that are only clean (not refinished), museum pieces like Jimmy Clark's Indy Car replete with original oil steaking and dirt as it resides in the Henry Ford. My intent is to get some other NCRS categories into the discussion on this forum rather than complete preoccupation with the "as it left St.Louis" category.

[Tom H.]

Re: If you want praise from street people...

Good point- the Sistine Chapel was cleaned, paint work stabilized, and destroyed areas repainted in part. Mine general sentiments are in concert with your views.

[John M.]

Re: "Over " Restored???

Tom,
You are right on point with the comments on the block stamping. It really makes little difference if the block came with the car or not, and with the skill of some people in re-stamping a block it is impossible to tell for sure! Part of the judging criteria however, is the block stamp and if you want to play the game, you must know the rules. I really find it amusing when people view my stamp pad, as about 50% of them are ready to call it incorrect at first glance.
The truth is that it is the stamp that was put into this block 43 years ago, but looks like it was stamped by a cross-eyed drunk! Unfortunately, the guys on the line all those years ago did not have the experts of today to tell them how a pad should look!
That being said, Neither the NCRS nor I have any problems with re-stamping a block, and if my car did not have an original stamp, then it would have the best re-stamp that I could muster. There are those who think that a re-stamped block is fraud, but think nothing of a fresh paint job and interior as well as almost any other mechanical component. This point of view, I simply can't understand. If you are restoring a car for judging, then all areas are open for restoration, but if you are preparing a car for Bowtie judging NO areas are open to restoration, it is as simple as that!

Regards, John McGraw

[Donald O.]

Re: Over Restored....

Well, the big four never MADE the cars perfect on the assembly line, but, as an engineer, they were never DESIGNED to have drips or orange peel in the paint. Or a body panel with more ripples and waves than the ocean or poorly fitting anything on them. The factory's only requirement was "get it out the door".

Yes, I too enjoy a painting by a master of old, but he ddn't paint it with the cracks and it was not mass produced.

My $.02

Don

[Michael Jones]

Re: If you want praise from street people...

Well, it does get frustrating asnd tiresome to show your car at a non-NCRS event and continually lose to over-restored cars that are concours quality whose owners spare no expense in improving the looks and making their cars flawless. I admit that I have nmade some compromises to originality to compete in these venues. But I also preserve the original parts of the car so that I can take it back if desired. I recently replaced the air cleaner with a more attractive chrome one and the scuffed up sill plates with new ones. The "great
unwashed" seem to approve.

Mike

[Jack H.]

All of this....

is why there are legitimate distinctions between (1) show 'n shine meets, (2) concours 'd elegance events, and (3) the factory concours circuit of NCRS, NCCB and Chevy/Vettefest. Understanding the differences in focus/objective is what each owner of a classic Covette has to struggle through in his/her learning curve. There is no 'right' or 'correct' way restore/maintain these classic cars; there's a SPECTRUM of avenues and each has its place.

What one does NOT want to do is put a square peg in a round hole. Like take a big time show 'n shine winning Corvette to a factory concours competition. It will only result in dissapointment and owner anger/frustration.... What we at NCRS do (primarily factory concours) is a specialty niche (preserve automotive parts and assy methods history) that's NOT for everyone.

That's why we now have n-tuple categories for car/owner award/recognition in the club (Flight, Star/Bowtie, Founders, Sportsman, and American Heritage). Understanding the subtile differences, looking in the mirror and really getting a grasp on what your end game objective is for your Corvette BEFORE you launch into this/that fix-up effort is VITAL to your end satisfaction and sanity!!!!!!

It's one of the reasons, we tend to take 'bad press' from other organizations who THINK we believe there's only one 'correct' way to have, hold and enjoy a Corvette. Nothing could be further from the truth! But, if/when you place your classic Corvette on an NCRS judging field for Flight competiton, the focus WILL be that of factory concours. Hey, nothing says you have to do this and some enlightened owners who really don't want their Corvettes in factory concours condition come just for the fun and learning (not a serious attempt to get the big Kahuna award). They tend to have fun and enjoy what we do....

[Mike G.]

Very well put! *NM*

[Wayne M.]

Amen, Jack *NM*

[Tom H.]

Re: All of this....

I think Jack's made the point quite nicely- there's no one way that's correct. Got to go- Trying to figure out how to fit these new aluminum heads on my small block. And yes, I'm going to save the old FI heads and other miscellaneous bits and pieces--for some future owner who'll probably replace the small block with a fuel cell. Now, if they want to mess with that beautiful mid-year body.......