Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

[Todd P.]

I am writing in need of assistance regarding factory grind-outs. I am presently at a Regional Meeting and have encountered some difficulty with the judges interpretation related to the engine pad on my 1964 corvette. Specifically, the judges at the meet have never encountered a grind out where only one character has been deleted. They admit to having seen many 2 character grind-outs but have never seen only 1 character ground out. All said, might anyone from the forum have photos of a grind-out where only 1 character has been deleted and re-stamped? Thanks in advance for your assistance and feel free to call of email to discuss directly.

Thank you

Todd Parsons
t.parsons@me.com
303-444-3888

[Joe L.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

I am writing in need of assistance regarding factory grind-outs. I am presently at a Regional Meeting and have encountered some difficulty with the judges interpretation related to the engine pad on my 1964 corvette. Specifically, the judges at the meet have never encountered a grind out where only one character has been deleted. They admit to having seen many 2 character grind-outs but have never seen only 1 character ground out. All said, might anyone from the forum have photos of a grind-out where only 1 character has been deleted and re-stamped? Thanks in advance for your assistance and feel free to call of email to discuss directly.

Thank you

Todd Parsons
t.parsons@me.com
303-444-3888

Tom-------


Anyone that has seen 2 character grind-outs and doesn't believe there could be 1 character grind-outs exhibits questionable judgement. If there were 2 character grind-outs (and there were), it's virtually certain there were 1 character grind-outs.

As a matter of fact, both 1 and 2 character grind outs were contrary to GM policy at the time. My understanding of GM policy was that if only one or two characters needed to be corrected, the erroneous charcaters were supposed to be "X'd" out and the correct characters stamped above. Notwithstanding that, grind-outs were very commonly used as an alternative to the GM policy directions according to the late George Barlos and Phil Hawkins, both of whom worked at the St. Louis Corvette plant for many years.

[Todd P.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Joe,

Thanks for the information providing acknowledgement of such an issue. I'm hoping this information can facilitate resolution.

Best

Todd

[Loren L.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

I'm aware of one character grindouts in the extremely late 1965 production where there is a situation of a changeover scheduled in block casting #s for the next year and motors in the engine room might be configured in 365HP but not for TI, for example. Obviously casting # changeovers does not apply in '64 - what is your situation?

[Todd P.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Loren, I have a 1964 327/300 manual transmission convertible. It was an early April build. The Serial Number on the engine block matches that of the window sticker and the broach marks are consistent throughout the pad. As best as I can ascertain, the engine was destined for a 327/300 Automatic and instead the 's' for automatic designation was ground and re-stamped with an "R".

See the attached photo.

Thanks again for the insight.

Todd
IMG_1316.jpg

[Joe L.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Loren, I have a 1964 327/300 manual transmission convertible. It was an early April build. The Serial Number on the engine block matches that of the window sticker and the broach marks are consistent throughout the pad. As best as I can ascertain, the engine was destined for a 327/300 Automatic and instead the 's' for automatic designation was ground and re-stamped with an "R".

See the attached photo.

Thanks again for the insight.

Todd
[ATTACH=CONFIG]53159[/ATTACH]

Todd-----


This would have been a grind-out at Flint V-8 Engine. However, the same principle applies as a St. Louis grind-out.

The genesis of this change is probably pretty simple. There is very little difference between an engine destined for an automatic transmission and one destined for a manual transmission. The differences are the installed flywheel, the presence or absence of a bellhousing, and an installed pilot bearing or not. It's possible that Flint V-8 engine needed to reconfigure some automatic destined engines to manual trans configuration to meet orders.

[Dan H.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Had a very original one owner 63 340 HP Coupe, the engine had an RF but was lightly ground and an E was placed over the original F. Vin 13528, silver/black coupe. Stuff happens!
Dan

[Loren L.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Todd, are the exhaust manifolds correct for the application?

[Michael W.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

What does the on-site head judge have to say on this matter?

There is a well laid out process for resolving disputes during the meet without having to organize internet lynch mobs. This sort of sets an usual precedent in my mind. I'd also use 'the give the owner benefit of the doubt' principal if I were one of the judges.

[Todd P.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Loren,

Yes. The exhaust manifolds are correct. Good point to consider.

Thank you

Todd

[Terry M.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

I am writing in need of assistance regarding factory grind-outs. I am presently at a Regional Meeting and have encountered some difficulty with the judges interpretation related to the engine pad on my 1964 corvette. Specifically, the judges at the meet have never encountered a grind out where only one character has been deleted. They admit to having seen many 2 character grind-outs but have never seen only 1 character ground out. All said, might anyone from the forum have photos of a grind-out where only 1 character has been deleted and re-stamped? Thanks in advance for your assistance and feel free to call of email to discuss directly.

Thank you

Todd Parsons
t.parsons@me.com
303-444-3888

Todd,

The time for you to have done your research on this feature of your car is before you brought it here; unless this came as a surprise to you. Please tell me you didn't know about this "grind out" before the meet.

The discussions between you, the judges and the National Team Leader are between those parties and you, and are private, unless as in this case you chose to make them public. Were I one of those people, or the meet judging chairman or the National Judging Chairman (and it is this sort of event that makes me very glad I am not) I would not be very happy that since you didn't like my decision(s) you have appealed to a group of by-standers who are not present and who have only the benefit of your position on the issue. And don't tell me that those judges and administrators can join in this conversation if they want their side aired. Their participation would only compound one inappropriate (IMO) action with another.

This tech board is not the place to create a poll about judging decisions while the event is in progress, and there really is no such place. Before the Internet I used to see this happen among the by-standers at the meet, and by word of mouth to those vending in the swap meet and then everyone else at the meet. I can assure you airing ones dirty laundry (as we used to say. And I am not implying I think anything about your car is "dirty.") in "public" never comes to a good end. As a judge and National Team Leader (and it has been a while since I have been either) I would be personally offended by you choosing to solicit the opinion of every Tom, Dick, and Harry on this Tech Board. The only opinions that count at the meet are those to whom you can, and should, appeal and that must be done at the meet.

Your appeal process of the judges decision is first to the National Team Leader, then to the meet Judging Chairman, and then to the National Judging Chairman. You will get more with honey than viniger, so polite well modulated conversation will get you farther than anger and bluster. I strongly encourage you, since your car has been judged, to save your research untill you receive the score sheets in the mail, and remember ALL the people you appeal to in the process are in Loveland at the Hammons Convention Center, and will have the benefit of looking at the item in question. Any other opinions (including mine regarding the inappropriate nature of your actions) just don't count.

[Todd P.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

What does the on-site head judge have to say on this matter?

There is a well laid out process for resolving disputes during the meet without having to organize internet lynch mobs. This sort of sets an usual precedent in my mind. I'd also use 'the give the owner benefit of the doubt' principal if I were one of the judges.

To all of the knowledgeable contributors and those trolling this post,

I greatly appreciate the input provided in such a short time frame and hope that it facilitates a favorable outcome for me and can serve as a learning opportunity for the community as a whole. Please know that the primary purpose of presenting my dilemma to the NCRS forum was to harness the abundant wealth of knowledge within the community especially given my limited tenure as a member. The judging team was kind enough to consider the issue at hand overnight and given that they had not seen such an occurrence in all of their years of judging I felt it was incumbent upon myself to ask those far more knowledgeable than me for some insight. In so many words my attempt is an effort to capture all that is good about social networking in my case, and to contribute to the NCRS body of knowledge as a whole given my experience as a 1-owner (car inherited from my father) since new 1964 Convertible. Hence the reason I am so adamant about the authenticity of the car given our ownership from day 1.

Thanks again for all of your insight.

Todd

[Todd P.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Terry,

Thanks for your concern and input. As an FYI during the restoration process the 'grind-out' was discovered.
Your greater point is exactly what I was attempting to avoid. I hope that my previous post explained my rationale for posting this to the greater community and hope that it would add to the overall body of knowledge. However as a new member, should I have overstepped any cyber-boundaries please let me know and I will limit my discussions.


Thanks

Todd

[Joe R.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Todd,

You did exactly what any member should have done. It just happened you had access to the internet and aired your disgust for the judging and exposed it to the membership!
Judging on the level you have experienced has turned off many a member and caused them to leave the NCRS!
I don't know what meet you are attending but you should receive an apology from the National Judging Chairman, the 63-64 team leader and the ones judging your car at this meet. It is the responsibility first of these people that all members are treated fairly and all concerns are addressed!!!

JR

[Terry M.]

Re: Factory Grind-Out assistance needed

Terry,

Thanks for your concern and input. As an FYI during the restoration process the 'grind-out' was discovered.
Your greater point is exactly what I was attempting to avoid. I hope that my previous post explained my rationale for posting this to the greater community and hope that it would add to the overall body of knowledge. However as a new member, should I have overstepped any cyber-boundaries please let me know and I will limit my discussions.


Thanks

Todd

Todd,
There are no written boundaries that I know of. It is only my view of what should happen in a polite society. I am not so naive as to expect everyone to share my view. I know life is not like that.

I know you spent a lot of real and emotional money to get here. The judges and administrators came here (for the most part) at their own expense. The theory of the judging process is that it is members helping other members to improve their car. The owner then goes home and in the following weeks studies the score sheets with the judges comments and makes what improvements he/she decides are appropriate to their car. All these people are volunteers. Even you, although you have a lot of capital invested you chose to bring your car here. Stoking the fire of controversy will not help to make this a better experience for any involved.

Please, if you have not already done so, sit down with Carlton, Chuck Banks and Dave Brigham, in private (or as private as you can find out there), and talk about your situation. Do it today, and hope that Carlton is still here.

The time to research the issue is now after you get the score sheets back, and you can tell us all what the deduction was. I will stop by and chat with you this morning.