Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected - NCRS Discussion Boards

Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

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  • Richard M.
    Super Moderator
    • August 31, 1988
    • 11287

    Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

    I'm posting this information to show what the results were from improper machine shop work, and how it was corrected by a experienced shop. This is a 1961 '519 block that was rebuilt by a inferior machine shop 1 1/2 years ago and waiting for assembly. It sat before the owner asked me to take over and finish his restoration, acquired a few months ago from a good friend in NY. I decided to have the engine completely rebuilt again as a short block, at my new(to me) machine shop locally here in Vero Beach Florida, American Cylinder Head, Inc. Lynn is a very experienced machinist and he gave me much advice when I had a nightmare with that '60 engine with identical problems with deck surfaces resulting in combustion gasses in the cooling system.

    This '61 pictured below, had it's decks sanded on a flat table belt sander by that "other" shop, assembled as a short block, and given back to my friend. I didn't want to go through another nightmare with this one, and I told him I was bringing it to Lynn to rebuild from scratch. Lynn and Jarod rebuilt those '60 heads for me after I discovered similar improper work several months ago. Unfortunately, that '60 block never got back to ACH.

    First up, I got a call from him saying that there was a problem with this '61 block. I took a ride over and he showed me what was inside the oil galleys. Rusted crud, never cleaned out from the other shop. And the lifter bores were a mess as well. As you can see, it's just like the '60 engine after first run when I drained the oil and found magnetic particles at the bottom of the oilpan.

    Second up, he re-machined the block decks, in 3 passes of .004" each for a total of 0.012" to get them flat. He used blue dye to show telltale imperfections and "radiuses" in all edged surfaces. As you can see in the sequence of pictures, the blue disappears after machining in several stages.

    Now that I have a "properly" rebuilt short block, I have confidence I'll get this one running without combustion gasses in the coolant.

    Rich
    Note, due to this site's link restriction in a post, you'll have to click to view.

    oil galleys, etc






    decking process




  • Dan D.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • November 4, 2008
    • 1323

    #2
    Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

    Rich, how bad did this wipe out the pad and broach marks?

    -Dan-

    Comment

    • Timothy B.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • April 30, 1983
      • 5177

      #3
      Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

      Rich, how did he apply the blue dye, was it sprayed on or rolled.

      Comment

      • Paul J.
        Expired
        • September 9, 2008
        • 2091

        #4
        Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

        Originally posted by Timothy Barbieri (6542)
        Rich, how did he apply the blue dye, was it sprayed on or rolled.
        I've always seen it brushed on.

        Comment

        • John S.
          Very Frequent User
          • May 4, 2008
          • 424

          #5
          Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

          Rich,

          I have been following this from the beginning. I initially could not believe that it would be the deck surfaces. Your pictures have changed my mind. I have been in the aerospace machining business for 36 years so I know a little bit. Also I have built/rebuilt my fair share of small blocks. I can tell you I am shocked by those pictures. The ones near the end that show low spots between the cylinders and water jackets are very revealing. Who ever did the prior work should not be working in this industry, period!
          John Seeley
          67 Black/Teal
          300 hp 3 speed coupe
          65 Maroon/Black
          35k mile Fuelie coupe

          Comment

          • Dick W.
            Former NCRS Director Region IV
            • June 30, 1985
            • 10483

            #6
            Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

            Originally posted by Paul Jordan (49474)
            I've always seen it brushed on.
            I have seen Dykem in aerosol cans, but have never used it.
            Dick Whittington

            Comment

            • Bob J.
              Very Frequent User
              • November 30, 1977
              • 712

              #7
              Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

              Originally posted by Dick Whittington (8804)
              I have seen Dykem in aerosol cans, but have never used it.
              Yes Dick..........it comes in blue or red and Grainger sells it. Bob

              Comment

              • Dick W.
                Former NCRS Director Region IV
                • June 30, 1985
                • 10483

                #8
                Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                Originally posted by Bob Jorjorian (1619)
                Yes Dick..........it comes in blue or red and Grainger sells it. Bob
                Ah! The "Junkster" lives!!
                Dick Whittington

                Comment

                • Edward J.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • September 15, 2008
                  • 6940

                  #9
                  Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                  Rich, that is great news, persistence won this one for sure, And I sure this left you with a pit in your stomach until it was resolved. Let us know when she is running.Ed
                  New England chapter member, 63 Convert. 327/340- Chapter/Regional/national Top Flight, 72 coupe- chapter and regional Top Flight.

                  Comment

                  • Al R.
                    Very Frequent User
                    • June 30, 1988
                    • 687

                    #10
                    Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                    Rich, I've been dealing with a machine shop in the Smithfield NC area since Oct '12 on my 59 engine, trying to get him to correctly rebuild and straighten out his mistakes. Finally gave up and carried it to a "Professional shop in another county. The oner of tis new shop called me in to g over what he found wrong with it. Some things were overhoned cylinders, rod bearings too tight, heads sanded down like your block, screw-in rocker stud holes drilled at an angle to the head, both toward and away from the valves, exhaust valves longer than intake and having a seat pressure of 7 lbs closed, etc, etc I'm currently trying to find a replacement set of 375550 heads for the engine--not repairable with the other issues involved. I will be pursuing legal action when all the costs for a rebuild are in. I feel this guy (1st shop) has no business in the engine rebuild profession, either. I know what you are going through. STILL NEED a set of 550 heads dated Dec 58 thru Jan 9 59. Al

                    Comment

                    • Thomas H.
                      Extremely Frequent Poster
                      • August 31, 2005
                      • 1051

                      #11
                      Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                      I just don't understand how these shops stay in business. I've built many engines over the years as a hobbyist and I try to be as meticulous as my knowledge and experience let me. Never had a problem with any of the builds and found a couple good machine shops in the area that I can trust.

                      The 58 I'm working on supposedly had the engine "professionally built". It was never run and I some a few things externally that made me decide to tear into it. I'm glad I did because the "professional BOZO" that assembled the engine did not cover the connecting rod bolts when installing the rod and 5 of the 8 crank journals were nicked causing the bearings to be scored. Plus he used the wrong keepers on the valves and each valve stem has a small notch in it now that needs to be smoothed out before removing the valve otherwise it scores the valve guide (took me two valve removals to figure this one out..........ugh).

                      Not to mention three different type of pushrods (all the same length though) and a mix match of head bolts.

                      All reasons I try to do as much work myself as I can. I have no machining capability, but at least if I screw something up during assy (and it has happened, have the bent valves to prove it.....) I only have myself to blame.

                      1958, 283/245, White/red - Top Flight, October 2016
                      1960, Black/black, 283/230 4sp
                      1966, Black/Red, 327/350 4sp w/AC
                      1967, 427/390, 4sp, Goodwood Green, Coupe
                      1971 LS5, 4sp, coupe, Bridgehampton Blue
                      2007 Z06, Lemans Blue

                      Newsletter Editor, Delaware Valley Chapter

                      Comment

                      • John D.
                        Extremely Frequent Poster
                        • November 30, 1979
                        • 5507

                        #12
                        Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                        Originally posted by Dick Whittington (8804)
                        Ah! The "Junkster" lives!!
                        It's Mr. Junkie DW.
                        Gail Parsons had a block decking machine that would mill the block the same as Flint did. I heard his wife sold that machine to a well known engine builder. That would be the tool to use on block decking for proper broach marks. The machine takes up the space of a small garage. Also heard there is as identical machine on the West coast.
                        Horrible pics aren't they Richard. What a shame.
                        Story: I have similiar issues re-restoring FI units. Seems that some don't own a granite surfact plate and think they can resurface castings with a belt sander. Or they can use a thick piece of glass or a scrap piece of granite counter top.
                        When in fact a machinist surface plate is the only tool they/we should be using. Readily availble tool today and affordable. Try Traver's Tool.
                        Fi Art wrote an Article for Vinnie a few years ago on surface plates. JD

                        Comment

                        • Richard M.
                          Super Moderator
                          • August 31, 1988
                          • 11287

                          #13
                          Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                          Guys, Funny thing......after I posted all those links in #1 yesterday morning, I got locked out. I thought the site was down all day and night and this morning. Gary Chestnut just fixed it for me. Thanks again Gary.

                          Wow, I missed a lot! okay, so to answer some questions.....

                          The stamp pad was sanded off before a year and a half ago. I think Lynn said he just brushes the dye on.

                          And yes, now that all have seen these pics of the decks, and the hills and valleys and radiused edges, now everyone believes me when I said that '60 block, done by the same "1st" shop, was truly a banana, even after redecking by him. His processes and equipment are certainly inferior.

                          okay, more pics. DC is about 5 thousandths, both top & bottom, about 10 thou tilted piston so 5 makes sense. and I was concerned about inlet manifold fit..... looks good. I test fit it to the heads(also done by ACH), using a used set of head gaskets, (~.040"CT), just snugged the a few head bolts for now. Manifold holes and threads line up fine. Mating surfaces are parallel. Should be good.

                          i'll try not to get locked out this time with links.

                          Rich
                          P3050012.jpg P3050013.jpg P3050021.jpg P3050022.jpg

                          Comment

                          • Richard M.
                            Super Moderator
                            • August 31, 1988
                            • 11287

                            #14
                            Re: Improper Machine Shop Block Work Resurected

                            And do you remember the '60 engine when I took it apart after the first "explosive" coolant event? The junk in th oil pan, and when i pulled the center main cap......

                            Oh, and BTW, I got blamed for that. The machine shop owner said I put junk in there when I had to clean 3 lifter bores because the lifters wouldn't go in, hmmm, wonder why? The pics below are the '60 engine, not this '61 engine on Topic. look familiar?

                            PA220059.jpg PA220062.jpg PA230069.jpg PA230067.jpg

                            Comment

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