Award Potential of a NOM car

[John M.]

Gentlemen,

I ran across a '71 coupe for sale. The seller was clear that the engine was "not original motor". He did state that the original engine was a 350 and was replaced with a 350. The original motor is MIA no idea where it is. My question is regardless of the originality of the rest of the car would it be impossible to attain any NCRS award with this car. I have not seen the car in person so have only a phone conversation to work from at this point. Thanks for your input.

John

[Mike E.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

John,
It was explained this way by David Brigham the National Judging Chairman in a recent thread:

Folks, what if I buy a previous Duntov car and then drive it a little too hard and blow up the motor (beyond repair). Does NCRS tell me to throw away the car? No. We allow restoration motors. We do not allow performance enhancements (i.e. HP changes or handling upgrades...these will lead you to Counterfeit Land...you don't want to go there). Regardless of previous judging's, if you replace the motor with a correct (for your car) HP motor, we will judge the car. Our system of 88 points in total for the pad acknowledges that a motor is a consumable commodity...original pad surface is worth 38 points, machine code is worth 25 points and VIN derivative is worth 25 points (for cars with no VIN derivative...i.e. most C-1's...the pad stampings are worth 50 points...no 25/25 split). I hope this clarifies things. Dave

https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...967#post688967


Mike

[Joe L.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Gentlemen,

I ran across a '71 coupe for sale. The seller was clear that the engine was "not original motor". He did state that the original engine was a 350 and was replaced with a 350. The original motor is MIA no idea where it is. My question is regardless of the originality of the rest of the car would it be impossible to attain any NCRS award with this car. I have not seen the car in person so have only a phone conversation to work from at this point. Thanks for your input.

John

John------


Well, a certain 1967 L-88 which, if I understand correctly, did not have its original engine just sold for 3-1/2 million dollars. I may be mistaken, but I believe this car was NCRS Top Flight. I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Michael J.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

John------


Well, a certain 1967 L-88 which, if I understand correctly, did not have its original engine just sold for 3-1/2 million dollars. I may be mistaken, but I believe this car was NCRS Top Flight. I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct Joe, in fact that 1 of 1, red on red, '67 L88 coupe was actually a Duntov Award winner with the original engine long gone and replaced, I assume with a "restoration" engine (at least that's what it looked like at BJ last week). It also had a mile deep multi-coat BC/CC paint job that blinded you from 20 feet and you could have fallen into up close. I am guessing it was painted AFTER the Duntov.

[John M.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Mike and Joe,

Thanks for your responses. This was a much more positive answer than I was expecting. Too bad for the owner of the '67 only 3.5 million!

John

[Bob H.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

John:

The replacement engine would have to match what the car came with. Date codes have to typically be within 6 months of the build date, the closer the better. To not lose a lot of points, the "restoration" engine would need to be restamped and emulate the factory installed engine. There are endless threads on what is acceptable. Keep in mind if it came as a 350 300 hp then that is what must be put back into the car. You could not replace the 350 300hp with like a 350 350 hp. That I believe would be considered "counterfeit and the car would be disqualified from judging.

[Roy S.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Guys, lets face reality here, the standard deductions for a non original engine block have been spelled out within NCRS since before I became the judging chairman in 1996. Its no secret.

non original casting number minus 350 points. maximum deduct

correct casting number, casting date that does not work for the car - according to our published standard minus 175 points

Original casting number, casting date that is correct - according to our publish standards, nothing on the engine pad (read no original broach marks, no engine machine code no vin derivative if original equipped) minus 88 points .

Pad surface worth 88 points, 38 for broach marks, 50 for pad identifiers which can be a machine code only in some years (50 points) or a machine code and vin derivative in some years (25 points each)

The 3.85 Million L88 did not have its original engine the buyer knew that before he bid, I personally explained it to him very plainly. It does have a 1967 GM produced IT over the counter complete engine, correct casting number, correct casting date, virgin untouched broach marks and an original GM installed IT machine code with no VIN derivative stamp. I applaud the prior owner, NCRS when it was judged, and the new owner for recognizing this car for what it is. It is a much more authentic L88, than most of the others which have recently sold with restoration engines built from pieces that may have never been L88 to start with.

Someone could have stamped a VIN derivative on this engine years ago ad the experts might have never known, but the owners never wanted to taint any of the history they left the car true to its history, well know and documented.

[John M.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Roy and Bob,

Thanks also for your input. Since I am new to NCRS I may ask questions that have been answered numerous times. To help avoid that I ordered the Technical Information Manual and Judging Guide and The Judging Reference Manual for the C3. The more I know the better, that is one of the things that impressed me about NCRS members from my first exposure to this board, depth of knowledge. The input about hp specifications is appreciated, I have no intention of ever misrepresenting a car I own in any manner. Not suggesting that that was implied just feel strongly about that from a personal standpoint.

John

[Michael J.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Engine stamp pads and paint are the two most controversial, and in many ways subjective, issues NCRS deals with, IMO. The manual will help a great deal, but on these issues there is nothing like asking questions and getting expert advice and opinions. Ask questions and probe, that is the only way to understand these issues, and even after many years, you may still have to do it.

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Guys, lets face reality here, the standard deductions for a non original engine block have been spelled out within NCRS since before I became the judging chairman in 1996. Its no secret.non original casting number minus 350 points. maximum deductcorrect casting number, casting date that does not work for the car - according to our published standard minus 175 pointsOriginal casting number, casting date that is correct - according to our publish standards, nothing on the engine pad (read no original broach marks, no engine machine code no vin derivative if original equipped) minus 88 points .Pad surface worth 88 points, 38 for broach marks, 50 for pad identifiers which can be a machine code only in some years (50 points) or a machine code and vin derivative in some years (25 points each)The 3.85 Million L88 did not have its original engine the buyer knew that before he bid, I personally explained it to him very plainly. It does have a 1967 GM produced IT over the counter complete engine, correct casting number, correct casting date, virgin untouched broach marks and an original GM installed IT machine code with no VIN derivative stamp. I applaud the prior owner, NCRS when it was judged, and the new owner for recognizing this car for what it is. It is a much more authentic L88, than most of the others which have recently sold with restoration engines built from pieces that may have never been L88 to start with.Someone could have stamped a VIN derivative on this engine years ago ad the experts might have never known, but the owners never wanted to taint any of the history they left the car true to its history, well know and documented.

Very well said. I don't know why the stamp pad is this all consuming issue. NCRS spells out what is acceptable & what's not & the points for each part of the block. For those that get it no explanation is needed. For those that don't none is possible.

[Michael W.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Engine stamp pads and paint are the two most controversial,

Not to mention the most misunderstood and criticized by those that like to guess or assume how the judging works.

[Michael J.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Fair enough, but sometimes that lack of knowledge can be brought about by judges and officials that refuse to give specific information and critiques about them and act defensive when questioned by the car owner about it.

[Paul J.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Very well said. I don't know why the stamp pad is this all consuming issue. NCRS spells out what is acceptable & what's not & the points for each part of the block. For those that get it no explanation is needed. For those that don't none is possible.

Talk about something being "Very well said".

[Joe L.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Guys, lets face reality here, the standard deductions for a non original engine block have been spelled out within NCRS since before I became the judging chairman in 1996. Its no secret.

non original casting number minus 350 points. maximum deduct

correct casting number, casting date that does not work for the car - according to our published standard minus 175 points

Original casting number, casting date that is correct - according to our publish standards, nothing on the engine pad (read no original broach marks, no engine machine code no vin derivative if original equipped) minus 88 points .

Pad surface worth 88 points, 38 for broach marks, 50 for pad identifiers which can be a machine code only in some years (50 points) or a machine code and vin derivative in some years (25 points each)

The 3.85 Million L88 did not have its original engine the buyer knew that before he bid, I personally explained it to him very plainly. It does have a 1967 GM produced IT over the counter complete engine, correct casting number, correct casting date, virgin untouched broach marks and an original GM installed IT machine code with no VIN derivative stamp. I applaud the prior owner, NCRS when it was judged, and the new owner for recognizing this car for what it is. It is a much more authentic L88, than most of the others which have recently sold with restoration engines built from pieces that may have never been L88 to start with.

Someone could have stamped a VIN derivative on this engine years ago ad the experts might have never known, but the owners never wanted to taint any of the history they left the car true to its history, well know and documented.

Roy------


I don't think that anyone here was saying, or even implying, that the buyer did not know the car in question did not have its original engine. Also, I don't think anyone was saying or implying that the car didn't deserve a Top Flight (or any other) NCRS award. Quite the contrary. The original question was could a 1971 Corvette without its original engine ever obtain such an award. The 1967 L-88 discussed here is a perfect example of not only the fact that a car without its original engine could achieve Top Flight but also that a car without its original engine could be quite valuable.

[Michael J.]

Re: Award Potential of a NOM car

Roy------


I don't think that anyone here was saying, or even implying, that the buyer did not know the car in question did not have its original engine. Also, I don't think anyone was saying or implying that the car didn't deserve a Top Flight (or any other) NCRS award. Quite the contrary. The original question was could a 1971 Corvette without its original engine ever obtain such an award. The 1967 L-88 discussed here is a perfect example of not only the fact that a car without its original engine could achieve Top Flight but also that a car without its original engine could be quite valuable.

Well said Joe!